Submarines in a Convoy Sea Zone

[WILD BILL]

Yeah, what he said. Just think kcdzim is one of the people that shot me down on my orig post (LOL), now he's kinda defending me. So this alone shows there's some confusion.

[kcdzim]

Yeah, what he said. Just think kcdzim is one of the people that shot me down on my orig post (LOL), now he's kinda defending me. So this alone shows there's some confusion.

Shot down maybe, but I understood where your confusion would come from.  The diplomatic rules are NOT clearly written and make it appear far more complicated than it is meant to be.  As I previously wrote, I interpreted incorrectly that if a power did NOT make a "formal" DOW in response, they were not permitted to make a combat move against a power that declared war previously.  There's no reason a power WOULDN'T make the DOW (anyone would, and even if you didn't state it your gaming group probably would assume it), but it still appeared that it was possibly "required" for any number of rule triggers.  Which is crazy talk.  And it's not even required.  Any DOW is essentially mutual, should be mutual (if a turn is several weeks, it would be on the same turn - no country waits to declare war in retaliation), and should be written such that it is explicitly mutual.

[Krieghund]

I can see how "formality" may not have been the best choice of words.  However, I still don't see how what's in the rulebook is not clear.  To restate what I said earlier using different terms:

The rules require that powers not already at war make a declaration before attacking.  They also indicate that a power is immediately at war with another power when that power declares war upon it.  That's why a reciprocal declaration is purely ceremonial - the two powers are already in a state of war.  There is no game-related purpose in making a reciprocal declaration.

[WILD BILL]

OK, if Japan attacks the UK (unprovoked) it brings the US into the war right. Does the US have to first declare war in the beginning of its turn, or is it just a formality (purely ceremonial) and isn't needed. In other words on J2 Japan attacks only the UK. The UK & US both have 1 sub in a ��� convoy zone, that Japan can't kill. In the collect income phase of the same ��� turn, does it cost them 4 ipc's?

[Krieghund]

OK, if Japan attacks the UK (unprovoked) it brings the US into the war right.

No.  It allows the US to declare war on its turn.

Does the US have to first declare war in the beginning of its turn, or is it just a formality (purely ceremonial) and isn't needed.

It must declare war, as it is not yet at war.

In other words on J2 Japan attacks only the UK. The UK & US both have 1 sub in a ��� convoy zone, that Japan can't kill. In the collect income phase of the same ��� turn, does it cost them 4 ipc's?

No, it costs 2 IPCs, for the UK sub.  Japan is not at war with the US at that point.

[WILD BILL]

Exactly,
Now you know where the confusion comes from. The same act brings both parties into the war. One has to make a formal DOW in its own turn, the other is considered at war upon the attack. It is a double standard. If the same act puts the US into the war, why do they have to wait? You know they are going to declare war, it is as you say just ceremonial.

Any way I won't argue the ruling any further (I can see how it came to be), just wanted to show the source of the confusion.

[kcdzim]

Exactly,
Now you know where the confusion comes from. The same act brings both parties into the war. One has to make a formal DOW in its own turn, the other is considered at war upon the attack. It is a double standard. If the same act puts the US into the war, why do they have to wait? You know they are going to declare war, it is as you say just ceremonial.

Any way I won't argue the ruling any further (I can see how it came to be), just wanted to show the source of the confusion.

No, this is a completely different matter.  Declaring war on the UK does NOT bring the US into the war.  It permits the US to declare war against Japan on the US turn.  Of course, the US will, because it gives them cash, but they are NOT in the war before then.  Japan can declare war against the UK, and as long as it's not choosing to declare war on the US, it can move through a seazone containing a US ship and ignore it completely (the US cannot block it), or fight a battle in a seazone containing UK/ANZAC and US ships and the US ships are not part of the battle and will remain in the seazone afterwards.  

There is a great deal of confusion on that rule too though (not being REQUIRED to declare war on the US in order to attack a UK space) and it's miswritten in this way on Mickelson's setup sheets.  

[TheCaptain]

OK, if Japan attacks the UK (unprovoked) it brings the US into the war right.

No.  It allows the US to declare war on its turn.

Does the US have to first declare war in the beginning of its turn, or is it just a formality (purely ceremonial) and isn't needed.

It must declare war, as it is not yet at war.

In other words on J2 Japan attacks only the UK. The UK & US both have 1 sub in a ��� convoy zone, that Japan can't kill. In the collect income phase of the same ��� turn, does it cost them 4 ipc's?

No, it costs 2 IPCs, for the UK sub.  Japan is not at war with the US at that point.

Ok, so basically, if the USA is not attacked, it has to declare war before it can take any war actions.  However, if the USA is attacks (lets say on J2), then it is immediately brought into the war and essentially acts as if its at war starting J2 (meaning, in WILD BILL's example, if Japan did a J2 and hit the USA somewhere, and there was a UK and USA sub in a ��� Convoy zone that Japan cant kill, does that mean Japan loses 4 on its turn?

Also:

If I'm attacked at Pearl on J2 and I have ships with men located adjacent to Quebec, can I immediately land units in UK on USA2?  If I wasn't attacked and instead had to wait, the earliest I could move my men would be USA4 correct?  (DOW on USA3, but since no attack has occured, I DOW at the end of my turn and THEN do war moves on USA4).

[Krieghund]

Ok, so basically, if the USA is not attacked, it has to declare war before it can take any war actions.  However, if the USA is attacks (lets say on J2), then it is immediately brought into the war and essentially acts as if its at war starting J2 (meaning, in WILD BILL's example, if Japan did a J2 and hit the USA somewhere, and there was a UK and USA sub in a ��� Convoy zone that Japan cant kill, does that mean Japan loses 4 on its turn?

Correct.

If I'm attacked at Pearl on J2 and I have ships with men located adjacent to Quebec, can I immediately land units in UK on USA2?  If I wasn't attacked and instead had to wait, the earliest I could move my men would be USA4 correct?  (DOW on USA3, but since no attack has occured, I DOW at the end of my turn and THEN do war moves on USA4).

Also correct.

[Krieghund]

There is a great deal of confusion on that rule too though (not being REQUIRED to declare war on the US in order to attack a UK space) and it's miswritten in this way on Mickelson's setup sheets. 

OK, I can see that there's confusion.  What I don't see is why there's confusion.  As far as I can see, the rules are clear on these points.  What is it about the rules themselves (not people's perceptions) that is unclear?

Also, if the rules are clear, why do you think that people are confused about these issues?

[WILD BILL]

For starters the first line, second paragraph in the US out line (Europe pg 34) under "The Political Situation" states:

"The US may not declare war on any Axis power unless an Axis power declares war on it first, after which it may declare war on any or all Axis powers".

This insinuates (to me) that the US needs to declare war on one or all axis powers. It doesn't say any thing about when to do it, or that war now exist between the US and the power that declared war (did attack) immediately. Further more it doesn't state that the US must wait until its turn to declare war on the other two axis powers either. When it says the US has to declare war I would take it as being on the US turn for all.

2nd, pg #35 under US (political situation global rules) middle of the second paragraph.

"If the US has war declared on it by an Axis power or Japan makes an unprovoked declaration of war on the UK or Anzac, the US may declare war on any or all Axis powers".

This insinuates (to me) the same as above. It clearly says the US can declare war on any or all axis powers in both situations. It doesn't tell you when to declare war (now or on your turn) it groups them all into the same lump. It says nothing about being at a state of war (a mutual DOW) with the power that declared war on you and attacked.

Then when you add in the side bar on pg 15 "Powers that Begin the Game Neutral"  This is where I get the declare war on your turn. Its the only time I saw in the rules that you can declare war.

Now I get the meaning now through these discussions, but not through the rules as written. If I have missed an important part in the political rules please point it out.

[calvinhobbesliker]

If Japan DOW's the US, does the US immediately go to war against Germany/Italy, or can Italy pass through US ships for one turn?

[WILD BILL]

That was my next question, dealing with Euro axis vs Japan. If Germany declares war on US G3 and attacks (��� will attack only UK/Dutch J3), does a US sub in a ��� convoy (that ��� can't remove) cost ��� convoy disruption? I know this would be strange for ��� not to attack the US, but maybe they don't have enough tpt's to take all the DEI, and the Phil.

I'm assuming it doesn't because the US wasn't attacked by ���, and has to give them an official DOW on the US turn.

[WILD BILL]

If Japan DOW's the US, does the US immediately go to war against Germany/Italy, or can Italy pass through US ships for one turn?

This question adds more fuel to the fire. Calvin doesn't usually have much trouble interpreting the rules. He is normally setting people straight.

[Latro]

There are two ways to find yourself at war:

- being attacked, which automatically results in a mutual state of war (no such thing as a one-way war)
- declare war yourself, which sometimes depends on a set of conditions

... and that's all I need to know!