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Author Topic: My turn 1 strats seem different than all the others....  (Read 2540 times)
MistaBiggs
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2003, 10:09:58 am »
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BEST case scenario:

U.K. survives Germany's attack of Anglo-Sudan Egypt without losing a single unit (VERY unlikely).  This would allow the transport from India to pickup the infantry in Anglo-Sudan Egypt and the infantry in Syria-Iraq and drop them back into India.  The only other U.K. unit that could reach India is the bomber.  This would give India a total of 4 infantry, 1 fighter and the bomber.  Japan could have a maximum of 4 infantry, 1 bomber and 2 fighters (if Russia didn't eliminate the fighter in Manchuria or playing RR).  I still think Japan wins -- however, they probably won't have any ground units to take the territory unless they sacrifice a plane.

But this is the BEST case scenario, so ...

If U.K. keeps the I.C., U.S.A. moves both infantry from Sinkiang and the fighter from China to India on it's first turn, the tank from Anglo-Sudan Egypt (moved to Persia on turn 1) moves to India and (let's say U.K. moved both fighters to Russia or Karelia on turn 1) U.K. moves the two fighters to India ... and on turn 2 U.K. buys 2 fighters and an infantry for India -- this would give India 3 infantry (2 U.S.A. and 1 U.K.), 5 fighters (1 U.S.A. and 4 U.K.), and 1 U.K. tank.

This would definitely allow U.K. to hold India in turn two; however, this will 85% NEVER happen.

Germany will probably win in Ango-Sudan Egypt.  This will only enable U.K. to pickup 1 infantry in Syria-Iraq and fly the bomber over to India.  India will have 1 fighter, 1 bomber and 3 infantry.  Japan will win and take the territory.  U.S.A. will retake India, but Japan will then retake India and eliminate U.S.A. from Asia on turn 2.  The rest is history!
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laststrike
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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2003, 10:20:05 am »
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In the scenario where Germany takes AES, it may be more effective for the UK player to non-combat move the India TRN to the Burma SZ, thus blocking the 2 INF from Phil.  

Other things to consider is
- Russia could send a FTR or two to India as well
- There is a chance the UK sub in the WMD retreats to the Red SZ which could also act as a blocker in the Burma SZ allowing the India TRN to pick up the INF from Syria

If the Allies really want to hold India for the first couple of turns, all it takes is a little planning.
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MistaBiggs
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« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2003, 10:32:04 am »
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I agree ... it is possible (very hard though) and it would take the cooperation of all 3 of the Allies to hold India -- but, this would leave Russia at Germany's mercy.  I would love to be the Axis in this situation.
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laststrike
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« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2003, 10:35:54 am »
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Quote from: MistaBiggs
I agree ... it is possible (very hard though) and it would take the cooperation of all 3 of the Allies to hold India -- but, this would leave Russia at Germany's mercy.  I would love to be the Axis in this situation.


First of all, if the Allies do not work together, then the Axis will win anyway.  The Allies have to work together!

If the Russians try to stack Karelia AND non-combat move the FTRs to India, then yes you are correct.  However, the Russians could move into the Caucasus in force and set up Karelia as a dead zone for Russia 2.  The FTRs can get back to Karelia for a R2 attack if needed.
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MistaBiggs
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« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2003, 10:41:18 am »
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Correct...
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« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2003, 05:15:14 pm »
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1.  An all out R1 attack on Finland, EE, Ukraine & possibly Manch is a terrible set of attacks.  I can only assume the author does not understand the basic math behind the game.  The odds for all the European attacks are terrible.  Russia will not have 1 or 2 units left in each place; rather, they will be lucky not to lose 2 of those 3 battles.  Further, you leave the Baltic in-tact, unless you risk another bad battle of sub & tranny vs sub & tranny.  As noted, Germany will respond with Inf first.  Finally, the 2 Russian fighters are the most important Allied starting pieces and cannot be thrown away...else Russia has no ability to trade in Asia.

2.  The UK should never decide what they are going to do on UK 1, until after the German move.  Knowing this, the Russia should never commit to an India defence on R1.  It is fine to move some armour or even a trooper or 2 to Persia...but those Ftrs should NOT go to India on R1.  You are tying UKs hands.

3.  Depending on bids or not, extra G1 tranny buy or not.  (Assuming not). If Germany takes AES on G1, then the UK should take it back immediately on UK 1 by using the Syria Inf, 2 India Inf, the India Ftr and the UK bomber.  You will vacate Asia earlier giving Japan a good start...but you stop the Afrika Corps before they get started.  Move up your S Africa Inf, land the Ftr & Bomber with them in Kenya (or in IEA).  If Germany retakes AES with 2 Inf on G2, you retake it again with Kenya & your air.  The point is that if you bottle Germany to the mainland immediately they are virtually out of the picture and will have to go entirely defensive.  The 9 points in Africa are the most important points in the game from an economic point of view.  If the Allies hold Africa at the outset with minimal extra troops, establish the full pipeline immediately, and have no real distractions in Europe/Africa...then Germany is cooked and you need only worry about Japan.

4.  Personally, I never build Indian ICs....but if you want to the rules are this:  never build one if AES falls on G1.  Only build one if you place the Syria Inf and AES Inf there on UK 1 and the armour in Persia.  Additional backup of Russians in position to retake and the UK bomber in India is/are gravy.

5.  Presuming you have done #4....Japan CANNOT attack with 4 Inf, 2 Ftrs, 1 Bomber.  The FIC/Burma Ftr MUST first clear the UK tranny from the IndiaSz.  This leaves only 1 Ftr to attack India.  Do the math...this is a terrible attack for Japan on J1.  Just landing the 2 troops via tranny is scary...if your FTR gets pegged by the UK tranny your attack will be a total disaster.  Even if you land them, the main battle sucks for odds.  Further, you severely impede the ability to attack China and Pearl, you have at least 1 tranny (if it lives) in IndiaSz which is easily pegged by the UK bomber (1 reason not to put it into India).  Further, you likely need the other tranny to reinforce FIC/Burma (assuming you attack China as well)....this whole scenario is folly for Japan on J1 if the UK has 4 Inf & Ftr there.

6.  Russia should never attack (take) Manch on R1 unless UK is going to follow-up in Kwang on UK 1....in which case, UK forgets about Germany/AES and goes with the Kwang surprise and lands their Ftr in China as well (assuming it lives).  This is the one exception to the wait till Germany goes rule for the UK.  If Russia commits and takes Manch you are foolish Not to expect/plan for the UK to follow-up.  Otherwise, Russia has wasted 5 Inf and an armour of its Eastern force...units which are critical to slow Japan.  Having them squashed for no reason on the inevitable J1 counter is folly.  But take Manch AND Kwang and its worth it, reducing the ��� to 2 Inf on the mainland, likely keeping China & Pearl safe and slows the Japs 2 full turns.

7.  Similarly, Japan should never decide until after UK 1.  Hitting Pearl (at least Lite) is usually preferable to no Pearl at all, but it depends on too many variables to list here in full....Kwang Surprise?  Skies Over Siberia? etc Which Allied opening is being played?  Against a solid Allied player you should never expect to take India on J1 unless it is a 1 Inf freebie walk-in.  There are simply too many other things to do...unless the Allied player is very weak.

8.  The early J swarm strategy ICs/Armour is fun but easily defeated by a solid Allied player using standard orderly retreat and Yakut wall strategies.  If you do not make an immediate breakthrough...which you won't against a solid player....your armour heavy forces will simply sit around and wait for more Inf to arrive.  This effectively worsens Japan's start and slows the overall threat to Russia proper.  The upside is a first couple of turn easier exapnsion, but typically every single place you get, you can get with just the Inf push anyway.  In the early to mid-game the Asian front is typically defined by NUMBERS of units, NOT type of units.  In short, Japan has more than enough Air to make all the nickel and dime attacks it needs to make on the mainland after J1...thus sheer unit volumes ie: Inf push...is far superior to theoretical armour heavy attacks...which won't be given with orderly retreat....thus you will sit and wait and have the wrong mix of units 2 turns later.

9.  Japan does not need ICs to win.  The majority of my games see no ��� ICs bought ever.  I typically want at least 9 ��� trannies by mid-game.  I'll leave why and what to do with them for another post...as this is getting too long.

10.  Nothing.  Just here to make this an even 10 Smiley
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MistaBiggs
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« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2003, 08:36:45 pm »
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Well put Guest.

Plans do depend on prior moves...

There are few things that are CERTAIN in A&A, thus ... it is hard to talk strategy, b/c there are so many variables/situations (and NO ONE can predict the dice).

Thanks for the post!
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El Jefe
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« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2003, 09:47:31 pm »
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Japan makes a move on Alaska.  Whop dee do!  The US should be prepared for that and happy to see Japan taking the pressure off of the USSR.

I have won most games I played as Japan without an IC on the mainland.  Once I have 5 trns or more I can ship 8 inf & 1 arm each turn to the mainland. After J3 or J4, with about 40 IPCs, I can also add a ftr or another trns & inf to help take more of the Pacific/S. America or Africa...depending on which way I've already expanded the Empire.


To get us out of this rut...

You guys oughta hear TG Moses VI tell how his sister, TM Moses IV, builds the mega-RAF every time she plays as UK and kicks sas.  

Anyone else wanna chime in?
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haxorboy
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« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2003, 04:50:24 am »
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I am with you Jefe, the transport bridge is the way to go with Japan and if the US should ever leave itself short a round, you have the vessels and the troops to plop down on their soil for a quick toss up of their strat for a round or two.

Funny you should say something about the RAF strat, that is one of my favorite for UK. Just building planes and try to use what little resource I have at the beginning to maintain Africa. After UK5 and I have a nice airforce sitting on the ground, usually in the big K helping guard it so that Russia can build up the back side, and the US can shuck troops over to help the front side. Anytime Ger. throws ships in the water the mighty RAF take to the skies and punishes the silly sailors for even thinking about going anywhere. I believe this is a far better use of the limited UK cash flow then trying to throw money away at an eventual lost cause in India..

Just my two cents
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MistaBiggs
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« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2003, 10:01:39 am »
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Quote from: haxorboy
Just building planes and try to use what little resource I have at the beginning to maintain Africa. After UK5 and I have a nice airforce sitting on the ground, usually in the big K helping guard it so that Russia can build up the back side, and the US can shuck troops over to help the front side. Anytime Ger. throws ships in the water the mighty RAF take to the skies and punishes the silly sailors for even thinking about going anywhere. I believe this is a far better use of the limited UK cash flow then trying to throw money away at an eventual lost cause in India..


I agree with haxorboy.  I think the India IC is a lost cause.  UK should definitely build fighters for defending Russia and clearing the seas.  This will allow USA to shuck-shuck.  Well put!
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Gorion
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« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2003, 06:14:41 am »
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Well, after doing some mathematics I have also decided that an IC in India is a waste of money.

And IC on mainland for Japan however I found better then just suing transports. It's better to only move Infs with teh transports and place the tanks on the IC on mainland. This way Japan reach Russian with a greater force.

However, the Axis don't stand a chance if you do not play with bids, that's my honest opinion. So from now on I will always play with bids. (and RR offcourse)

But the amount of IPC that Axis should start out with is abit unsure atm. Last time they got 10 IPC, which proved to be kinda to much. It might be that we haven't played with bids before and that the Allies did some misstakes, so we'll try it out again with 10m and if it's still to much I'll consider an amount of 6.

What's your exp with bids?
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cystic crypt
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« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2003, 08:20:44 am »
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Gorion - maybe do a search on bids.  there is a lot of discussion out there concerning them.
my experience is axis needs more than around 7 or so (although i've found that 3rd w/ axis advantage is pretty comperable to my dismay).
As far as indian IC goes - i'm usually the guy who gets laughed at by saying that they can be handy.  Having said that, i am using them less and less and my use of them depends on what i'm feeling i want to do as Russia.  Occassionally i'll build the ic in the second round in India depending on what Germany and Japan does.  At the same time, if Germany is looking aggressive in Africa, then i'll forget about it.
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Anonymous
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« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2003, 03:12:02 pm »
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Bids...search this board there are many posts.

But...

3rd Edition, 2 hit BBs, RR

most common bids 5, 6, 8, sometimes 9, but not often.


2nd Edition, standard rules, 1 hit BBs, RR

similar, however, often add as much as 3...1 Inf.

Personally, I would never consider less than 6, and that only against weaker players.  Usually, I'll bid 9 or higher....if they want Axis for less they can have it.

The way I see it, Africa is the key.  2 extra units there gives you a fighting chance...3 is preferable.  Anything less and you likely get smoked in AES on UK1 counter.   This is the whole key to Ger 1...the bid is to give you a legit shot at taking and holding AES on G1.

I'll give up to and including 12 when playing someone new to bidding, especially in 2nd Edition.  Best to start higher and work down, IMO.  Make the Allies work for a change Smiley

Alternatively, try 3rd Edition, RR, 2 hitters, Axis Advantage and 3, 5, or 6.
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Grigoriy Ivanovitch
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« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2003, 04:48:41 pm »
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i really didn't have to reply to this one, but seriously, how can you be so lucky? even the luckiest people i've played with wouldn't dare that much. strategically, though, even if that did work i would buy all inf. instead of those armor because the krauts would likely be able to counterattack all those areas with the possible exc. of finland-norway.
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