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Author Topic: IL's Axis and Allies Global 1939 and 1942 files  (Read 48079 times)
finnman
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« Reply #135 on: July 12, 2010, 05:42:21 am »
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IL do the other nations armies work the same as Russia's and Germany's
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Emperor_Taiki
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« Reply #136 on: July 12, 2010, 06:12:20 am »
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Also Italy should have vicotry conditions independent from Germany, if the axis win but Italy has no empire and Germany has taken over the war effort in the med, thats not really a victory for Italy.

No way. Italy was only in the war so they can lay claims at the peace table and acquire territory concessions. Italy was entirely bound to Germany. Their is not way to have Italy win and Germany lose. They win or lose together and thats the point of their VC. They need to cooperate as they did historically.


While after Italy attaked France I find it hard to imagine that Germany would lose while Italy wins, however if the Germans had won its quite possible the Italians would lose, If Mussolini was not able to score any victories on his own or did not gain much territory that really isnt a win for Italy. I think historically Mussolini was jelous of Hitler's 1940 success and was reluctant to have German troops fight his battles.

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Too make combat and shore bombardment more realistic I was thinking perhaps there would be rule where infantry cannot be taken as hits from naval bombardment and air units. What do you think? Its always been weird when air units mow down infantry stacks or naval units which only represent a few ships massacre infantry units which are like 100,000 men each.

Trying to keep this KISS here and not another reiteration of AARHE.  Special rules made here are only added for fun factor and realism. That rule is just another layer of realism that is not fun to play. Complexity here is not the expense of flavor. it must have both and they must be connected.


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i dont see what isnt fun about this rule, its rather simple and it adds strategy. What this rule corrects isnt any less insane than the japanese taking moscow.

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Why are the Soviets and Japan not allowed to attack each other. If this is 1939 they should be able to have border conflicts like they did historicaly. The tensions on the Soviet-Japanese border factored into both nations strategies, it seems like the non-aggresion rule is trying to script history instead of puting the player in the shoes of historical leaders.

Because i despise JTDTM. Its the most insane thing i ever saw in a game. It adds nothing and it takes everything away from a vibrant Soviet build schedule. IN all the global games all they can build is mostly infantry because they always fight a 2 front war, when none ever existed. Its stupid as it is impossible. Japan could not even get a 100 miles inside Russia w/o bogging down. A repeat performance of 1939.

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by having a rule that simply states that Japan and the Soviets cant attack each, you have just switched out one unhistorical part of the game for another.
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Imperious Leader
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« Reply #137 on: July 12, 2010, 11:13:21 am »
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by having a rule that simply states that Japan and the Soviets cant attack each, you have just switched out one unhistorical part of the game for another.

well i guess you didn't read the rules?

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Non-Aggression Pact:
The Soviet Union and Japan have a special treaty in place. The Soviet player can never attack Japanese territories until Berlin falls. The Japanese player can attack the Soviets as early as turn 4.


Well first off the rules say Soviets can attack Japan once Berlin falls ( historical)

Second, Japan can try for the Soviets, but in this game they already fought that battle where Japan lost big. They can try again on turn 4, which is late 1941, but i have historical victory conditions in place, so Japan gains nothing from this except Vladivostok ( historical).

Third, the IPC are distributed historically, so the worthless folly of such an attack is soon apparent. Japan does not fight with Germany as a team ( also historical), while Italy does ( they had a large army in Russia in 1942 committed)
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Emperor_Taiki
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« Reply #138 on: July 12, 2010, 12:30:28 pm »
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I thought it was obvious i was refering to the first three turns, and its still wierd and not accurate for there to be a magical wall for the first three turns and then it goes away for only one side on the fourth.

If the IPCs are accuarte and the attack across the Soviet-Japanese border is usually a mistake, then why have the restriction in the firstplace.

And you have done a nice job of adding tons of territories in siberia so why are you worried that Japan is going to take moscow?
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Imperious Leader
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« Reply #139 on: July 12, 2010, 02:12:18 pm »
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I thought it was obvious i was refering to the first three turns, and its still wierd and not accurate for there to be a magical wall for the first three turns and then it goes away for only one side on the fourth.

Because it took this time for japan to recoup and even consider such an attack again ( Japanese army considered it, but realized it meant nothing for japans future as a world power).

Plus The Soviets have a nice sized army on that border. Japan could not even try it till turn 2.

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If the IPCs are accuarte and the attack across the Soviet-Japanese border is usually a mistake, then why have the restriction in the firstplace.

To make it more historical and provide balance against glitches for ahistorical players playing like robots with calculators and perfectly coordinating German and Japanese movement and landing the Japanese air force in Caucasus and other places to glitch the game with even more ahistorical nonsense. This game is meant for 4 players or more and not 2 players treating 3 nations as one super nation.
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And you have done a nice job of adding tons of territories in siberia so why are you worried that Japan is going to take moscow?

Because people will try anyway and id like to watch their plans fail miserably, trying old AAR strategies that don't apply in this version. This game forces players to invent a new concept and not rehash old ideas based on design mistakes that broad-brush a bit too much historical realism away from actual capabilities. Artificially, at least the extra spaces represent the rugged terrain... and futility of attempting to move in that direction. Japan must concern itself with pacific, but it can try for Russia, but will lose. I keep this dream alive only long enough for players to understand the futility in this dream. China is much more in Japans grasp and it will take a long war to finish them off too.
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Emperor_Taiki
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« Reply #140 on: July 12, 2010, 03:26:11 pm »
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Because people will try anyway and id like to watch their plans fail miserably, trying old AAR strategies that don't apply in this version. This game forces players to invent a new concept and not rehash old ideas based on design mistakes that broad-brush a bit too much historical realism away from actual capabilities. Artificially, at least the extra spaces represent the rugged terrain... and futility of attempting to move in that direction. Japan must concern itself with pacific, but it can try for Russia, but will lose. I keep this dream alive only long enough for players to understand the futility in this dream. China is much more in Japans grasp and it will take a long war to finish them off too.

Exactly, so why does there need to be the non-aggression rule?
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crusaderiv
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« Reply #141 on: July 12, 2010, 03:35:52 pm »
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Exactly, so why does there need to be the non-aggression rule?

Well put...
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Imperious Leader
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« Reply #142 on: July 12, 2010, 03:51:46 pm »
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So the game does not get:

1) unrealistic ( ahistorical)

2) number crunchers cant find a way to glitch the system ( like what Japan does by attacking on J1 in AAP40)

The time frame of 4 turns reflect the period of Late 1941, where japan last took a look at entering the war and considered at attack on Russia. This game allows this option, when before it Japan was not capable even to fight a limited war before late 1941. And she wasn't so its not artificial. If you consider Japans position in 1939- 1941, they didn't develop enough to sustain for a general war and even got bogged down in China.

Do you think the game should start in 1920 with Hitler getting ready to invade USA? NO because they were not ready then. same reason. Same reason why Hitler could not attack Russia in 1939, or Invade England in 1936, or land on the moon in 1945.

3) In the summer of 1939, Marshal Zhukov gave the Japanese forces such a pasting that they never again thought about venturing into Russia.

This was what happened before the game starts. The current history prior to the start of the game becomes part of the political situation and possibilities in this game. So Japan is not prepared for attacking the Soviets till they can also be prepared for attacking USA. They can choose one or both. Choosing the later will cost them a game.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 04:01:29 pm by Imperious Leader » Logged
Emperor_Taiki
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« Reply #143 on: July 12, 2010, 04:39:24 pm »
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But you already said that it is stupid for Japan to attack the Soviets because of the number of territores and units they would have to deal with. So why add the non-aggresion rule.

Like you point out there are accual reasons Japan didnt attack the Soviets, so why not model that in the game?
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Imperious Leader
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« Reply #144 on: July 12, 2010, 05:19:20 pm »
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Because i want this security by modeling the distance as well because the extra spaces in between model the rugged terrain better than the rule.

So in other words i don't want players to waste time trying it because its stupid, both physically and historically. Thats why i need the rule to make it more than physical, but to model the political reality of pre-Dec 1941.
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Emperor_Taiki
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« Reply #145 on: July 12, 2010, 06:53:08 pm »
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Because i want this security by modeling the distance as well because the extra spaces in between model the rugged terrain better than the rule.

So in other words i don't want players to waste time trying it because its stupid, both physically and historically. Thats why i need the rule to make it more than physical, but to model the political reality of pre-Dec 1941.
But the political reality is a result of the geography and the order of battle, so it seems like your overkilling it.
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Imperious Leader
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« Reply #146 on: July 12, 2010, 08:04:31 pm »
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Well play it out and you will see why it is the way it is.

I didn't give US the Atomic bomb either, because it wasn't ready for one, much like Japan was not ready to attack anybody till turn 4, or Russia can't attack Germany before turn 3, Or because a number of other things do not happen because its not the way it was 1939-45.

I model terrain by placement of the territories ( number of spaces on land from point a to b)

I model setup with quality of troops

I model political factors by KISS rules
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Emperor_Taiki
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« Reply #147 on: July 13, 2010, 09:37:57 am »
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Ok, but what about not allowing naval and air units to blast away infantry, that seems pretty KISS to me.

And what about giving Italy its own victory conditions so that there is a little tension between the il duce and the fuhrer.
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« Reply #148 on: July 13, 2010, 10:49:57 am »
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Ok, but what about not allowing naval and air units to blast away infantry, that seems pretty KISS to me.

And what about giving Italy its own victory conditions so that there is a little tension between the il duce and the fuhrer.

Play it the way its written first, THEN see how that could work.

Eliminating SB rules is not good, the defense now has fortifications and the offense needs that small advantage. Both sides need the 'ying and yang' to present these options add flavor.
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crusaderiv
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« Reply #149 on: July 13, 2010, 03:02:52 pm »
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So in other words i don't want players to waste time trying it because its stupid, both physically and historically. Thats why i need the rule to make it more than physical, but to model the political reality of pre-Dec 1941.
Hum...Not sure if you realy understood the political reality of pre-dec 1941.
You just fix the a game as you see it.
You did't give the oportunity to the player to change the curse of history.

But the political reality is a result of the geography and the order of battle, so it seems like your overkilling it.
Exactly...

Much like Japan was not ready to attack anybody till turn 4,
Ah..and what about China? A distraction? Japan army was rady to make war and got more experience than any other army.

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