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Author Topic: US Strategy?  (Read 1540 times)
VZSTAL
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« on: April 10, 2010, 11:10:24 am »
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Last week, I played my first game as the US and I wasn't exactly sure what direction to take.  I utimately went for Germany by building a fleet over three turns that would allow me to use a "conveyor belt" and land 4-6 troops in Algeria every turn.  By turn five, I had taken Southern Europe (although Germany took it back next turn) and Germany was eliminated completely from Africa.  UK was picking away at Western Europe and Norway while Russia was holding their ground on their western front.  Between trading Western Europe/Norway and Southern Europe every turn, plus UK and US industrial bombing, Germany was all but defeated.  However, since Japan was left virtually untouched, they ended up taking India by turn six and broke through into eastern Russia ultimately ending in a capture of Moscow at turn ten.  I wasn't too disappointed by the outcome because it was probably the most even match I've ever played.  However, I'm convinced that it was my fault as the US player because I left Japan alone, but I dont see how I could have effectively challenged them without letting Germany overrun Europe.  I told my friends that next time we play I want to give US another try but I'm still not sure what direction to take.  Any help?
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Hobbes
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2010, 11:19:16 am »
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From what I've seen so far, the US still has the same options as Revised: a) go for a KGF strategy, securing Africa and then either going after S. Europe or combining their forces with the UK, allowing for a double push into W. Eur, E. Eur and/or Germany. Another way is to use the US to reinforce Russia through Archangel to deal with any Japanese incursions but that will be a distraction from the main target, Germany.
You can also try b) going KJF (or better said, a Reduce Japan First strategy) where your aim is to build a fleet that can defend itself from the Japanese navy and airforce and take the money islands (DEI, Borneo, Phillipines) and then attack mainland Asia. The main goal is ease off Japanese pressure on Russia and reduce its income until it's no longer a threat, but you should keep an eye to taking Japan if the opportunity presents itself.
I suppose you could try a mix of both but I've never tried it and it might be impossible to approach the islands with the reduced forces assigned to the Pacific.
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Fleetwood Dan
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2010, 01:53:31 pm »
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Your conveyor belt idea is sound and most players use the same or similar idea. It could need refining to deliver units more quickly. Delivering 4-6 units per turn probably won't be enough. For a med strategy, you'll probably need to buy a carrier and I would want a total of at least 8 transports to deliver 8 units to Algeria and to pick up 8 units from Northern Africa to deliver to Europe. Otherwise, the Baltic isn't a bad place to be and a carrier might not be necessary. It creates the double threat to Western Europe, Germany, Eastern Europe, and Karelia can be reinforced by both Allies.
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VZSTAL
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2010, 07:14:04 am »
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8 transports sounds great but that would take many turns to set up if you are buying units to defend them right?  Also, I would still be leaving Japan alone.  I guess you could use Africa as a way to challenge Japan via India.  However, once the units land in Africa it would take them 3 turns to arrive because of the mech. inf. ability supported by tanks.

One of my friends had an idea of using a conveyor belt to take Norway from Eastern Canada, then building an IC there.  Norway would be much easier to hold and could act as a staging ground to reinforce Russia.  If you use Russia's lend lease ability, this may allow them to throw more resources towards Japan and stall their advance.

SO MANY OPTIONS! huh
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Funcioneta
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2010, 07:55:09 am »
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The fail with KGF is that Japan could counter with her own conveyor belt and invade mainland America starting for Alaska. If Japan does it enogh quickly, it can make USA irrelevant in Europe and Africa for the whole game, and Japan will have still some income to annoy Asia. UK could also have few income and there is a small chance of California or Whashington falling before than Moscow or Berlin (I've seen that at least 3 times)
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Zhukov44
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2010, 12:53:07 pm »
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8 transports sounds great but that would take many turns to set up if you are buying units to defend them right?  Also, I would still be leaving Japan alone.  I guess you could use Africa as a way to challenge Japan via India.  However, once the units land in Africa it would take them 3 turns to arrive because of the mech. inf. ability supported by tanks.

One of my friends had an idea of using a conveyor belt to take Norway from Eastern Canada, then building an IC there.  Norway would be much easier to hold and could act as a staging ground to reinforce Russia.  If you use Russia's lend lease ability, this may allow them to throw more resources towards Japan and stall their advance.

It's hard to give you advice if we don't know what optional rules you are playing with (lend lease, mech inf?).

As for the USA transport chain (called the "shuck"), Fleetwood is correct, you want to build up to about 8 transports.

You should never need to buy any more than 1 AC for protection (if you go North eg the Baltic, you may not even need that).  So for starters,, here is a buying strat for ya

USA: 1 ac, 1 tran, 6inf (or 3 inf 1 arm)
USA2: 2 trn 3inf 3 arm
USA3: same, 2 trn plus gear
USA4:1 trn, plus more gear (should be 4 inf 4 arm)
from then on you keep buying inf/arm mostly, and you consider buying up to 2 more transports to create more of a threat.  If end up with a 2/2 shuck to Europe (either through the Med or the Baltic), you will need at least 5 transports to get 10 land units (say 7inf, 3arm, which equals 36 ipcs, which USA should always be able to afford) to Europe.

Re transport buys, the key principle is always have enough transports to get the men you have to Europe/Africa...until you reach 8..at which point you should be buying mostly inf/tanks plus occasional fighters, and maybe 2-4 more transports if you need them to project a whole lot of troops to one location.

The point of this strat is NOT to march your forces through Africa to Persia etc.  If Germany plays really conservative you might have to do this, but this shouldn't be your goal.  Your goal is to first secure Africa, but more importantly you want to threaten and eventually conquer Europe in conjunction with UK forces.  For example, it may be possible to land 1-2 in Western Europe, in that case you may be able to land figs there as well.  Since inf defends at 2 and armor at 3, and since UK and USA can COMBINE forces, whenever you have the chance to force Germany to attack you instead of you attacking them, you should consider it.

Either way, once you get up to 8 transports, you should be able to threaten a landing on Western with...

10 British land units (with 5 transports)
16 American land units
3-4 American fighters

Now to defend against this, Germany can either stack Western or keep a ton of force in Southern/Germany to attack any landing on Western.  Either way, it should be hard for Germany to do this and get any offensive going against Russia, so Russia should be able to press into Eastern Europe and get rich on those ipcs.  Try to get Norway for Russia too..you do this by taking karelia with UK on Turn 1, and then using a Russian tank to blitz in on Russia2.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 01:05:11 pm by Zhukov44 » Logged
VZSTAL
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2010, 06:13:40 pm »
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Thanks for the help and detailed answers.  Looking back at the game we had, I think our downfall was the fact that UK and US did not coordinate landings like Zhukov stated.  We only had four players so UK was controlled by the Russian player.  However, my problem remains: What should the US do with Japan?  Is the name of the game capture Berlin before Japan becomes a real threat? 

By the way, the lend lease and mech. inf. I was talking about earlier are the national advantages.  The last time we played, each player picked two abilities by rolling dice.  We decided next time that we were going to play with all six for each country.

For the sake of debate, does anyone have a proven KJF strat?
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Zhukov44
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2010, 05:12:46 am »
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Mikey,

In Revised, the most efficient strat is probably the KGF, where USA pretty much ignores Japan and defends its own coast with minimal forces.  You try to use the existing forces in Asia to slow down and counterattack the advancing Japs when possible, but ultimately in KGF you try to win by getting the IPCs in Africa and Europe that dramatically swing the economic balance in Allies' favor, and you use tanks in Cauc/Moscow combined with an inf stack at Novo (or eventually, a combined Allied defensive stack at Persia) to keep Japan at bay.  The key is don't let Japan get Persia....this can be achieved by holding it or "deadzoning" it.

KGF is easier to learn, so I recommend beginners learn to play that first.  But for ideas for KJF strategy, see for example these posts.....

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=15579.0
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13714.0
http://www.gametableonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1762

Also you can use the search in these forums (search "KJF") for ideas...they were very helpful for me.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 05:14:20 am by Zhukov44 » Logged
Hobbes
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2010, 09:35:52 am »
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Thanks for the help and detailed answers.  Looking back at the game we had, I think our downfall was the fact that UK and US did not coordinate landings like Zhukov stated.  We only had four players so UK was controlled by the Russian player.  However, my problem remains: What should the US do with Japan?  Is the name of the game capture Berlin before Japan becomes a real threat? 

On Revised, 90% of the games or more will be decided by which falls first, Moscow or Berlin. It is very hard to go after Japan with the US because Japan can simply wait for the US and build a massive airforce to deal with any US naval presence on the Pacific while pressuring Russia.

Quote
By the way, the lend lease and mech. inf. I was talking about earlier are the national advantages.  The last time we played, each player picked two abilities by rolling dice.  We decided next time that we were going to play with all six for each country.

Using the description you mentioned the Allies will have 18 National Advantages while the Axis only 12. We usually balance it a little more by allowing 6 NAs overall for both sides, G and J get 3 while each of the Allies get 2. You could also give all 12 to the Axis and then 4 to each of the Allies.

Quote
For the sake of debate, does anyone have a proven KJF strat?

When I posted above I thought this topic was regarding AA1942, where a KJF strat is less difficult to achieve. On Revised it is possible to go KJF and win but that will usually involve bad rolls for J during the first round. The best way to do it requires what I described above, i.e. landing with the US on the East Indies or Borneo and building an IC there, while preventing Japan from retaking the island.

Some other players also try building ICs on round 1 on Sinkiang and India but it can be tricky to defend them without any Russian help (which will give Germany the opportunity to push hard on Russia) since the Japanese player can always build 3 transports on J1 then move a large army to Indochina to take India on J3, with all of its airforce and battleships.

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VZSTAL
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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2010, 03:15:55 am »
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Again, thanks for the help guys.  Hopefully the next game we have will result in an allied victory.  grin
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way2slo
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2010, 11:34:19 am »
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*snip*
....plus UK and US industrial bombing, Germany was all but defeated...
*snip*
....Any help?

You may wish to rethink the SBRs.  Well, if you have absolutely no other use for your bombers, I guess it is not a terrible idea.  However, you may want to move them to somewhere that they can be of other use too.  Getting to roll for some 4's in a battle is really nice and there are some who feel that it is more effective for your cause than an SBR.
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bigchris
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2010, 02:12:20 pm »
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miker49,

take a look at this.  this was my first attempt to setup a KGF 4x4 shuck with USA in 3 rounds:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13076.0

you can modify it to clear africa, to include a carrier purchase on USA1, or to get some armor going.  but, whatever you do, try and get a 4x4 going by USA4. 
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UtzChips
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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2010, 11:10:52 am »
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8 transports sounds great but that would take many turns to set up if you are buying units to defend them right?  Also, I would still be leaving Japan alone.  I guess you could use Africa as a way to challenge Japan via India.  However, once the units land in Africa it would take them 3 turns to arrive because of the mech. inf. ability supported by tanks.

One of my friends had an idea of using a conveyor belt to take Norway from Eastern Canada, then building an IC there.  Norway would be much easier to hold and could act as a staging ground to reinforce Russia.  If you use Russia's lend lease ability, this may allow them to throw more resources towards Japan and stall their advance.

It's hard to give you advice if we don't know what optional rules you are playing with (lend lease, mech inf?).

As for the USA transport chain (called the "shuck"), Fleetwood is correct, you want to build up to about 8 transports.

You should never need to buy any more than 1 AC for protection (if you go North eg  by UK/USA.  the Baltic, you may not even need that).  So for starters,, here is a buying strat for ya

USA: 1 ac, 1 tran, 6inf (or 3 inf 1 arm)
Why are we buying troops/tanks when we don't have but 1 tran to load? I ususally buy 3 trans, 1 inf & 3 tanks, which is 42 IPCs. Move the 2 inf in Central USA to east so you have 3 inf & 2 in W. USA to Central etc..I only buyan AC for USA if needed, such as when Germany positions their figs/bomber & BB where they can attack sz next to Algeria and the landing on R1 had to be postponed by USA & UK until they have enough defensive navy to take on Germany's attack.

Quote
USA2: 2 trn 3inf 3 arm
USA3: same, 2 trn plus gear
USA4:1 trn, plus more gear (should be 4 inf 4 arm)
from then on you keep buying inf/arm mostly, and you consider buying up to 2 more transports to create more of a threat.  If end up with a 2/2 shuck to Europe (either through the Med or the Baltic), you will need at least 5 transports to get 10 land units (say 7inf, 3arm, which equals 36 ipcs, which USA should always be able to afford) to Europe.
So where are you landing the UK troops all this time? Norway? If so, I find that Germany just stacks in Karelia & UK is trapped there and you can't ferry to Archangel.

Quote
Re transport buys, the key principle is always have enough transports to get the men you have to Europe/Africa...until you reach 8..at which point you should be buying mostly inf/tanks plus occasional fighters, and maybe 2-4 more transports if you need them to project a whole lot of troops to one location.

The point of this strat is NOT to march your forces through Africa to Persia etc.  If Germany plays really conservative you might have to do this, but this shouldn't be your goal.  Your goal is to first secure Africa, but more importantly you want to threaten and eventually conquer Europe in conjunction with UK forces.  For example, it may be possible to land 1-2 in Western Europe, in that case you may be able to land figs there as well.  Since inf defends at 2 and armor at 3, and since UK and USA can COMBINE forces, whenever you have the chance to force Germany to attack you instead of you attacking them, you should consider it.

Either way, once you get up to 8 transports, you should be able to threaten a landing on Western with...

10 British land units (with 5 transports)
16 American land units
3-4 American fighters
Where are these UK forces and what has UK been doing all this time? I cannot, for the life of me, come up with a concerted plan for Allies, giving a 7 germany bid, and win against the Axis on gametableonline.com

Quote
Now to defend against this, Germany can either stack Western or keep a ton of force in Southern/Germany to attack any landing on Western.  Either way, it should be hard for Germany to do this and get any offensive going against Russia, so Russia should be able to press into Eastern Europe and get rich on those ipcs.  Try to get Norway for Russia too..you do this by taking karelia with UK on Turn 1, and then using a Russian tank to blitz in on Russia2.
When it comes to the Allies, I believe any discussion about a plan has to be talking about all 3 countries because they are working together to put pressure on Germany & Japan at the same time.
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Zhukov44
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2010, 10:27:37 am »
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Utz, the nice thing about KGF in Revised is it can be deployed flexibly.  Some opponents will stack Western and won't allow the Western stack tactics I'm talking about, forcing a long game.  

The conventional winning strategy for Allies against an expert level Axis is UK shucks to Arch/4, USA shucks to Africa/12.  Russia first focuses on dead-zoning Karelia by getting as many units to Western Russia as it can, then it gets men to Persia in conjunction with UK air/armor that landed in Arch.  From there, the Americans reinforce Persia.  Hold Persia and Allies can win the economic war.  

If Axis is skilled, this makes for a long game.  If at all possible, it's nice to shake things up with more aggressive strategies, and that's where mass landings on Western along with aggressive Russian attacks come in.  From SZ 4 or SZ 12, the Allies can hit Western, so there's a lot of room for flexibility.

Re USA1 ACs, it's not strictly necessary to buy one if UK will land in 12, but it can be useful if UK will drop stuff in Europe immediately.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 10:29:40 am by Zhukov44 » Logged
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