Has anyone given any thought to Cruisers?


  • I am curious if anyone has given any thought to using cruisers for their AA capabilities? I would like to know any thoughts anyone may have on this, pro or con.


  • AS you may know Cruisers were the primary naval unit that were built for AA defense and id say (to keep it simple) they should have a free roll just like an AA gun against attacking enemy planes hitting at a 1. Plus they were built for speed and should move 3 (along with Carriers). AS you also know at Midway the Japs sent their faster Carriers ahead of the main body of slower ships so they can strike quickly and leave the area. The downside is they were not protected or supported by ships such as Cruisers to help shoot down planes as they prepared to launch into torpedo attacks.

    Stats: Cruisers cost 12, attack/ defend at 3, moves at 3 takes one hit.
    If you want other ships battlecruisers, light cruisers, heavy cruisers i got some info for you as well.


  • Cruisers

    A cruiser is a multipurpose ship. During World War 2, there are three kind of cruisers: the heavy, the light and the antiaircraft ones.

    The heavy cruiser (10 000 to 12 000 tons, with 10 or so 8 inches guns) is a small battleship. A little quicker (she was able to follow the carriers, which was not the case of most battleships) and with a handsome armor.

    The light cruiser (6 000 to 8 000 tons, with 10 or so 6 inches guns) is less protected (the French and Italian light cruisers were especially badly protected). Her role is more akin to that of destroyer, as flotilla leader. She can operate at the same speed, with guns and torpedoes and can provide a solid complement of firepower.

    The anti-aircraft cruiser is as big as a light cruiser (sometimes as a heavy cruiser), she has more but smaller guns (5 inches or less) and are able to lay a deadly fire on incoming enemy planes. They rarely operate independently or against surface ships, by lack of heavier guns.

    Impy mentioned the battlecruiser. She is not really a cruiser but rather a battleship (as to the weight and the weaponry), in which protection is sacrificed for the need of speed. That kind of ship proved a failure during the battle of Jutland, during World War 1. Almost only remnants of that period appeared in the order of battle during World War 2. The newly built battlecruisers were in a fact either full blown battleships (such as the Scharnhorsts) or very heavy cruisers (such as the American Alaska). Both had an adequate protection.

    A last word to mention the auxiliary cruisers (Armed Merchant Cruisers) which were merchant ships with a couple of guns. They were used either to attack isolated merchant ships (the German used a dozen of them), or to defend them (the British had much more of them).

    Destroyers
    A destroyer weight from 1000 to 3000 tons. She sails fast, up to 40 knots. She is the fastest ship in the fleet. Her weak point is the range. Whereas a battleship or a cruiser can sail 10 000 miles upward, the destroyer can hardly put more than 1000 or 2000 miles, a couple of days of sailing. That forced the task forces during the war to perform lengthy and dangerous fueling operations, where either fleet tankers or bigger ships (carriers, battleships) gave away part of their fuel to the guzzling destroyers.

    The armament of a destroyer is about 6 guns, around 5 inches (The Germans built bigger destroyers with 6 inches guns, but they were not successful). Some World War 1 leftovers had guns of less than 4 inches. The most deadly weapon of the destroyer was the torpedo.


  • Cruisers

    Description: Warships that can fire on incoming enemy planes.

    (One can use the battleships from A&A Classic as cruisers.)

    Cost: 15
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 3 (Opening fire against attacking aircraft)
    Move: 2

    Special Abilities
    Shoot Down Air Units: Whenever an air unit enters a sea zone containing an enemy cruiser, the cruiser fires during the Conduct Opening Fire step of combat. Roll one die for each attacking air unit (but only one cruiser in a sea zone can fire during the opening fire step, even if they are controlled by different powers). For every roll of 1, one attacking air unit is destroyed. This opening fire capability is for the first cycle of combat only and does not cancel the regular roll during the Defending Units Fire step.


  • @B.:

    Cruisers

    Description: Warships that can fire on incoming enemy planes.

    (One can use the battleships from A&A Classic as cruisers.)

    Cost: 15
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 3 (Opening fire against attacking aircraft)
    Move: 2

    Special Abilities
    Shoot Down Air Units: Whenever an air unit enters a sea zone containing an enemy cruiser, the cruiser fires during the Conduct Opening Fire step of combat. Roll one die for each attacking air unit (but only one cruiser in a sea zone can fire during the opening fire step, even if they are controlled by different powers). For every roll of 1, one attacking air unit is destroyed. This opening fire capability is for the first cycle of combat only and does not cancel the regular roll during the Defending Units Fire step.

    I am thinking of adding an extra special ability to cruisers, shore bombardment. What do you think?

    Shore Bombardment: In an amphibious assault, your cruisers may like battleships make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 3. Each cruiser fires once during the Conduct Opening Fire step against enemy land units in the territory being attacked (the enemy units do not fire back). A cruiser cannot conduct shore bombardment if it was involved in a sea combat prior the amphibious assault.


  • Sounds good but only not at a 3? perhaps a +1 for each matching cruiser or destroyer with a paired infantry. (small solution)

    Or:

    1)each matching BB +3 to each pared infantry
    2)each matching CA +2 to each pared infantry
    3)each matching DD +1 to each pared infantry

    FOR THE FIRST ROUND OF COMBAT ONLY! (BIG SOLUTION)


  • @Imperious:

    Sounds good but only not at a 3? perhaps a +1 for each matching cruiser or destroyer with a paired infantry. (small solution) … FOR THE FIRST ROUND OF COMBAT ONLY!

    Well Impy I like the logic in this rule, but still I want to stick with the original game and the way shore bombardment is conducted. So my suggestion is that a cruiser should get an shore bombardment on a 2, if at all! Lets say if a 2, would not the price of 15 IPCs be too low. Why, compared to DDs???


  • Ok a 2 is better and acceptable. Just keep the price at 15. Thats the “break even” point on why i would buy or not buy it. I love how we both spend all our days thinking about this game and coming up with the “science” of this game. Its awesome! I wish you the best!


  • @Imperious:

    Ok a 2 is better and acceptable. Just keep the price at 15. Thats the “break even” point on why i would buy or not buy it. I love how we both spend all our days thinking about this game and coming up with the “science” of this game. Its awesome! I wish you the best!

    But why is it your break even price (15 IPCs)? Does it mean that you will rather buy Cruisers for 15 IPCs than Destroyers for 12 IPCs as long as there are no subs around?


  • Yes exactly that! but i like destroyers to go down to the 8-10 IPC range under the optional rules section. In fact i think its time to soon give you all the ideas running in my mind as a collaborative effort of sorts… Perhaps you can use some of them and refine them to a sharp finish. Ill compose something and get back.


  • @Imperious:

    Yes exactly that! but i like destroyers to go down to the 8-10 IPC range under the optional rules section.

    … Perhaps you can use some of them and refine them to a sharp finish. Ill compose something and get back.

    Why reducing the price for DDs? The problem behind it might be solved easier than a price change.

    I would love to take a look at your house rules. May I ask about your profession, or if you are a student I would like to know what you are study?


  • I will explain this after i complete my case for having these new units at all.

    I am not a student any longer. I have two degrees in Philosophy and History with a minor in finance. I simply own a number of apartment buildings and take care of them. Otherwise like you i focus my time on studying and researching military sciences for the purpose of making some good games. I wear a few other “hats” but my resolve is to create a new game company that will be a creative value to this genre of conflict simulations.


  • Impy, you suggests a 2/2 DD to a cost of 8 IPCs. It seems fair to reduce the cost by 4 IPCs, since the attack and defence is reduced in a corresponing manner. Which means that the destroyer unit cost 4 IPCs for each increase in the attack and defence value. A submarine cost 8 IPCs and attack and defend on a 2, the advantage of an opening fire ability is countered by the inability to defend against air. So I agree it is ok in that way. However there is a fact that has to be considered. The fact that destroyers actually can defend against air and that will change the game balance a lot. In the box rules a fighter is the most costefficient unit in naval combats, a flotilla of fighters can beat any combination of naval units to the same costs (this is basics). If one can buy 2/2 destroyers for 8 IPCs that will change the picture, now destroyers will become the most costefficient unit for naval combats. The reason is that destroyers will become the best cannon fodder, since they will outnumber a flotilla of fighters worth the same IPCs. Let me explain in statistics.

    10 AC + 20 Ftr

    Cost: 360
    Att value: 110+320 = 70
    Def value: 210+420 = 100
    Hits = 30

    45 DD

    Cost: 360
    Att value: 245 = 90
    Def value: 2
    45 = 90
    Hits = 45

    36 Ftr

    Cost: 360
    Att value: 336 = 108
    Def value: 4
    36 = 144
    Hits = 36

    The best naval defence will not be a fully loaded AC any longer since the destroyer combo can absorb more cheap hits than before. 2/2 destroyers (cost 8 IPCs) will not just become the best attacking naval combo as with the old rules, but also the best defensive combo. That means that destroyers will dominate the BB unit and the AC unit. A BB will cost as much as 3 DD! In turn a production of more DDs will restrict the opening fire ability of submarines even more. No Impy I think I stick to the old balanced box rules, the 3/3 destroyer to a cost of 12 IPCs. And the cruiser rule of mine (and yours) :wink: !

    Cruisers

    Description: Multipurpose ships that can fire on incoming enemy planes and conduct shore bombardment.

    (One can use the battleships from A&A Classic as cruisers.)

    Cost: 15
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 3 (Opening fire against attacking aircraft)
    Move: 2

    Special Abilities
    Shoot Down Air Units: Whenever an air unit enters a sea zone containing an enemy cruiser, the cruiser fires during the Conduct Opening Fire step of combat. Roll one die for each attacking air unit (but only one cruiser in a sea zone can fire during the opening fire step, even if they are controlled by different powers). For every roll of 1, one attacking air unit is destroyed. This opening fire capability is for the first cycle of combat only and does not cancel the regular roll during the Defending Units Fire step.

    Shore Bombardment: In an amphibious assault, your cruisers may like battleships make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 2. Each cruiser fires once during the Conduct Opening Fire step against enemy land units in the territory being attacked (the enemy units do not fire back). A cruiser cannot conduct shore bombardment if it was involved in a sea combat prior the amphibious assault.


  • Ok that looks fine but you will have to add another unit:

    Escort carriers (using the regular a/a piece)

    I think cruisers are done!


  • @Imperious:

    Ok that looks fine but you will have to add another unit:

    Escort carriers (using the regular a/a piece)

    I think cruisers are done!

    There are only a certain amount of IPCs to spend and a space to fill on the game board! No I cannot see why an extra unit will be needed. For what reasons. Only game balance will do here Impy, so give me the statitics!?


  • http://www.ww2pacific.com/cve.html

    [http://history.acusd.edu/gen/ww2Timeline/carrier.html](<br />http://history.acusd.edu/gen/ww2Timeline/carrier.html)

    Their were a lot more escort class carriers from the UK, Japanese, and USA navies, then what was used or built as regular fleet carriers. The idea is basically that battleships are very expensive to build and their was fewer of them, while their was alot of Cruisers and Destroyers, while until recently we had no cruisers….so why cant we have escort carriers as well??

    Uses of escort carriers:
    Convoys–
    Fleet actions–

    Escort carrier tactics when escorting convoys:
    There is a choice when operating escort carriers about where the ship operates with respect to the convoy.

    It can be within the convoy, which gives it the protection of the convoy’s own escort but brings the problem of space to turn into the wind to operate aircraft.
    Or it can be near the convoy which eliminates the operating space problem but loses the advantage of the convoy escort (forcing the carrier to have its own escort). It also brings the problem of the carrier being easily spotted by forces attacking the convoy and perhaps presenting them with a juicy (and possibly easy) target.
    Or it can be some way off from the convoy. While this adds the problem of the time needed for aircraft to travel to the convoy this is a fairly minor problem compared with the matter of being spotted by forces attacking the convoy.


  • I can see the historical relevance, but cannot see any need for such an unit. Cruisers do actually satisfy a need, air-protection. I would also say that the national income is a restriction in it self of how many units that is possible to have, not to mention the space of the game board! I will stick to the old box rules and have the cruiser as an optional rule!


  • Ok thats fine but a parting point:

    battleships have their Jr. partner in crime and thats called a cruiser.

    carriers should have a Jr. partner in crime and i think it should be a escort carrier.

    destroyers and subs basically fight each other as opposites and you would buy them for different reasons. Thats how i see the equation.

    This seems like a good model for the game.


  • Impy, I do not agree with you here!


  • LOL ok fine then!! :D :D :D :D :roll:

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