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Author Topic: Take Hawaii  (Read 1560 times)
Ozone27
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« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2002, 10:42:30 am »
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Quote from: EmuGod
I like to take Hawaii on turn 2 as Japan (if possible) rather than turn 1. It's best to focus your forces on turn 1 against China and India and even Soviet East Asia if you're feeling bold. Japan has the worst economy and needs to boost its economy quickly. Taking India, China and SEA will increase you 7 IPCs from when you started while taking China, Hawaii and India will increase your economy by only 6 IPCs.


Depending on what the Allies do T1, of course, attacking all those places at once seems like a bad idea. Unless the 3rd attack is very small, I don't think Japan should attempt more than 2 major attacks T1--the reason is manpower--while the Allied forces in Asia are weak, on T1 so are the Japanese. Very often I've seen it happen that a player attacks China, Ssinkiang (or SFE) and India all at once and either cleared territories and not had enough INF left to take them, had to choose between losing a FTR or not taking the territory, or straight up lost after a couple bad dice rolls and had to retreat. I think its better to attack in just 2 places and pretty much know you are going to win and be set up for next turn's attacks than to take a gamble and split your forces hoping for some good luck.

As far as the Hawaii attack, I think when you Pearl Harbor you should always try to sieze Hawaii at the same time--this prevents the Eastern USA FTR from participating should the Americans counterrattack on their turn. Use 1 INF from Japan, 1 from Wake Island, land them on Hawaii. Use the FTR from the CV against Hawaii as well. Use all available ships (except the Phillipines TR) against the USA fleet at Hawaii + the BMR from Japan and the FTR from Philippines (who can just barely make it). I think using both BBs is optional, you really only need 1 unless you fear counterrattack. Attack in China w/ 2 INF from Manchukuo, 1 INF from Kwangtung and your 3 remaining FTRs. You should take it w/ 1 INF.
On noncombat land all planes ( the Hawaii plane must land on the CV, the BMR should land on Manchuria, the China planes can land in Burma or Manchuria or split between). P/U 1 INF from Philippines, 1 INF Japan and land them on Manchuria. Move the 1 INF from Kwangtung to Burma. Place the 2 TRs and 3 INF you built on Japan. Next turn you will be able to land 4 INF, 1 ARM in Asia and can commence really kicking butt...

I think Japan can be one of the most dynamic & exciting countries to play, but don't overextend yourself and start losing battles--your German ally is counting on you to steadily drive in against USSR, and having to rebuild shattered armies is a good way to let him down...

Just some thoughts...

Ozone27
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Candyman67
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« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2002, 11:48:32 am »
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Sounds good.  Bring one BB if you are planning on taking Hawaii.  Bring two BB's when you don't take Hawaii to have solid forces to defeat a US counter-attack.

To me, I just don't like taking Hawaii.  First, you lose one transport of infantry to the Asia continent. Second, the one IPC doesn't realy benefit Japan nor does it affect the US war effort.  If you are afraid of a counterattack, bring in the second BB (especially if there is 2 hit BB).  

Also, the Japan player has to be smart.  If Great Britain bought an AC for its first turn purchase, the US will probably end up landing its fighters onto it.  So, that tells you that there will most likely be no Pearl Harbour counter.
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cystic crypt
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« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2002, 01:42:19 pm »
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Quote from: Candyman67

Also, the Japan player has to be smart.  If Great Britain bought an AC for its first turn purchase, the US will probably end up landing its fighters onto it.  So, that tells you that there will most likely be no Pearl Harbour counter.


correction:  there will most likely be a less effective Pearl Harbour counter.  Depending on the player - 1 ftr to the AC, the other, a bomber, BB and transport may counter PH (at a terrible loss, but at least 2-3 planes and ships should go down, depending)
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TheJediCharles
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2002, 01:57:57 pm »
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Yea, well whenever I'm playing on the Allies team and see Japan moving against USA early on, especially to the extreme of trying to take Hawaii, I'll knock on my parter's leg under the table and give them the "oh man, this game's in the bag" look.  Every move towards UK or USA is heat taken off USSR and that is as close to "beginning to win" as I could ever describe.

But, that's just the way I operate.

When I'm USA, Japan can just have Hawaii and Midway.  That's not where the war is and whatever they put on those islands and whatever they lost to earn them is thankfully stuff I don't have to contend with when I have taken the northern passage and taken Manchuria.

America can afford a few set backs.  Japan can't.
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TG Moses VI
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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2002, 04:05:37 pm »
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Well, I'm also a support of taking Hawaii.  The main setback I see is that 2 inf don't go into the Asia mainland on the first turn.  This isn't as bad, as the first two turns, you mostly just want to maintain a foothold in Asia without taking too many territories.  A conservative play style allows Japan to be much more aggressive mid-game.  By T2, that transport can unload itself onto Manchuria without any loss of ATB (this really shouldn't be a problem if you stick to a VATB type purchasing plan).  Also, 1 IPC, no matter how small does matter.  In six turns, Japan makes 6 IPCs, but more importantly, USA is down 6 IPCs.  And such moves can be the meaning between life and death.
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EmuGod
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« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2002, 05:24:48 pm »
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I still think that Japan should take China, India and Soviet East Asia on turn 1 while knocking out the fleet at Pearl Harbor. If Japan buys 2 trnsports and 3 infantry on turn 1, it can use those on turn 2 to attack either Midway or Hawaii if the US does not counter-attack or if it doesn't succeed in defeating the fleet there. Japan can use the carrier, battleship and fighter from the Caroline Sea to attack Pearl on T1 along with the fighter from the Philippines and the sub form the Pacific. Attacking Indiea with the 2 infantry and fighter from Indo-China and the bomber from Japan should also be done, along with an assault on Soviet East Asia using 2 infantry and a fighter from Japan and the battleship there. The 2 infantry from Kwangtung, along with 2 infantry from Manchuria and the fighter there should attack China. On the non-combat move, Japan uses the transport on the Philippines to land either 1 or both of the infantry from the Pilippines at French Indo-China.
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TheJediCharles
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« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2002, 06:32:47 pm »
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You guys need to quit talking like this.

You're scaring Lilo.

 wink
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Ozone27
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« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2002, 08:11:21 pm »
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Quote from: EmuGod
I still think that Japan should take China, India and Soviet East Asia on turn 1 while knocking out the fleet at Pearl Harbor. If Japan buys 2 trnsports and 3 infantry on turn 1, it can use those on turn 2 to attack either Midway or Hawaii if the US does not counter-attack or if it doesn't succeed in defeating the fleet there. Japan can use the carrier, battleship and fighter from the Caroline Sea to attack Pearl on T1 along with the fighter from the Philippines and the sub form the Pacific. Attacking Indiea with the 2 infantry and fighter from Indo-China and the bomber from Japan should also be done, along with an assault on Soviet East Asia using 2 infantry and a fighter from Japan and the battleship there. The 2 infantry from Kwangtung, along with 2 infantry from Manchuria and the fighter there should attack China. On the non-combat move, Japan uses the transport on the Philippines to land either 1 or both of the infantry from the Pilippines at French Indo-China.


I can see you are an experienced player, but I must disagree. The odds in all these attacks are long. If you win 2 of these battles, you are likely to lose 2 as well, and that is bad.

Assuming there is only 2 INF and 1 FTR on India (in our games there is often 3 INF) , you are attacking w/ 2 INF 1 FTR and 1 BMR. The UK get 2 rolls at 2, 1-at-4. You will get 2-at-1, 1-at-3, and 1-at-4. That means the odds--while slightly in your favor--are more or less even, which means you are likely to take at least 2 hits (In my knee-jerk probability analysis). Will you lose a FTR or fail to take the territory?

What about China? There you are attacking w/ 4-at-1 and 1-at-3, where the U.S.-Supported Chinese Forces are defending at 2-at-2 and 1-at-4. You'd better hope that you score 2 hits on your first attack, or the Chinese will undoubtedly make at least 3 total hits (they may anyway) before they die, leaving you again holding a territory w/ 1 INF.

In Hawaii you will most assuredly win, with your 1-at-1 (CV), 1-at-2(plus no counter-SUB), 2-at-3 (FTRs) and 1-at-4 (BB), vs. 1-at-2, 1-at-3, and 1-at-4. But the US will practically ALWAYS score at least 1 hit at these odds, and might withdraw their SUB for a future counterattack. Assuming they've sunk just your SUB, they can then on their turn attack you w/ 1 TR, 2 FTR, 1 BMR and 1 BB. That's 1-at-0, 2-at-3, and 2-at-4. They will score at least 2 hits, and you will have to lose 2 FTRs or 1 FTR and a BB (if you lose the CV, they can just rtereat and you automatically lose a FTR). Depending on how determined they are, USA may score another hit on round 2. Either way, it is now up to USA to decide whether they want to build another fleet to challenge you in the Pacific, or just build a D-Day force against Germany in the East--you have just ceded the initiative to USA.

The assault on Soviet Far East is sound, providing the Soviets have only 1 to 3 INF there (as they usually do). However if they left only 1 INF in SFE, which you destroyed w/ your BB, you are still leaving only 2 INF in SFE, 1 INF in Manchukuo, and (at best) 3 FTRs in Manchukuo. So you launch an attack against the Soviet forces in Yakut S.S.R T2. You can attack with, *at maximum*, 3 INF 3 FTRs and a BMR. That is 3-at-1, 3-at-3, and 1-at-4 vs. (presumably) 5-at-2. The Soviets will score either 1 or 2 hits before being destroyed, leaving your land forces in Asia in *complete tatters*. The Soviets will need to commit only, I'd say, 3-4 INF to prevent you from making any further inroads into their territory until you've had time to build up again--say 1-2 turns at best; and this is only assuming you have NOT made the attack on Midway/Hawaii you say you have planned for T2. This is not helping your German partner much.

So to recap, assuming you took India & lost a FTR there, T2 you are looking at: 2 INF SFE; 1 INF 2 FTR MANCHURIA; 1 INF CHINA; 2 INF 1 BMR F I/C BURMA; 1 INF INDIA; 3 TR 4 INF 1 ARM Japan, and maybe 1 CV Hawaii. You have indeed gained (given a little luck) 7 IPCs in Asia, but you must reinforce your units to make headway vs. the USSR and Ssinkiang, so you will basically lose a turn doing so. Again this is only assuming you have NOT made your planned Midway/Hawaii attack. Germany needs you to be WHALING on USSR by T3. What do you do...?

This is just intended as an honest critique. As I said I can see you are an experienced player and have planned this attack carefully. I am just not comfortable with 50%/50% odds unless the gains are very substantial. In a game where the Allies go for a "Germany pileup"--the worst case scenario--this plan would just not be effective. Perhaps if you knew the Allies were banking on a USA attack on the Pacific Islands it'd work, but if not, watch out!

Ozone27
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EmuGod
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« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2002, 08:23:10 pm »
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Nice calculations. On T2, I usually like to make one attack either on Midway or either on Hawaii, while using the 2 other transports (one on the Sea of Japan and one on the Okhtok Sea) to ferry troops and tanks from Japan into Manchuria. I also like to purchase a complex if I can afford to, which I place either on India, French Indo-China or Manchuria. I like to use all the remaining infantry in China and Indo-china to attack Sinkiang. you're right about the Germans crying for help by T3, but I find that unless I start quite an aggressive campaign on T1, the Russians can simply prepare their forces in the east and setup a reasonable defence. the invasion of Hawaii on T1 doesn't put any pressure on Russia at all like the invasion of Soviet East Asia. By attacking Soviet East Asia, I find that Russian players move an infnatry unit or a tank eastward to help defend against more Japanese incursions. At least one infantry moving toward Japan from the East Front is better than nothing moving there.
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TheJediCharles
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« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2002, 06:20:26 am »
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Japan could never take over Hawaii.

Don Ho would smash their heads with his ukulele and Jack Lord's lock of hair that has a life of it's own would whip their butts.
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TG Moses VI
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« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2002, 10:19:33 am »
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Wow, Ozone, great post!  You basically wrote down everything I had to say and then some  wink

And Emu, you are stretching yourself too thin by going after India, China, and Soviet Far East.  Like Ozone said, China and the Soviet Far East are good takes, but mix them with India, and you're bound to have trouble.  Now usually I will go after China, Soviet Far East (only if lightly defended), and Hawaii.  China needs to be taken on T1, or else you risk that US ftr getting away - 12 IPCs right there!  

  The problem with India is that it is strategically well-defended on Japanís T1.  Remember, the British is not dumb (well, unless itís TM who is playing wink), and he will have probably unload 1 inf from Syria (2 if Germany didnít take Egypt) in India, giving him a strong defensive stand at 3 inf, 1 ftr.  Also, the UK transport in the sea zone protects India from an amphibious assault, unless Japan risk using itís ftrs Ė frts needed at Pearl Harbor or in the China battle.  By all means, if UK hasnít built an IC there, wait to take India until at least T2.
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EmuGod
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« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2002, 01:31:24 pm »
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Quote from: TG Moses VI
And Emu, you are stretching yourself too thin by going after India, China, and Soviet Far East.  Like Ozone said, China and the Soviet Far East are good takes, but mix them with India, and you're bound to have trouble.  Now usually I will go after China, Soviet Far East (only if lightly defended), and Hawaii.  China needs to be taken on T1, or else you risk that US ftr getting away - 12 IPCs right there!  

  The problem with India is that it is strategically well-defended on Japan’s T1.  Remember, the British is not dumb (well, unless it’s TM who is playing wink), and he will have probably unload 1 inf from Syria (2 if Germany didn’t take Egypt) in India, giving him a strong defensive stand at 3 inf, 1 ftr.  Also, the UK transport in the sea zone protects India from an amphibious assault, unless Japan risk using it’s ftrs – frts needed at Pearl Harbor or in the China battle.  By all means, if UK hasn’t built an IC there, wait to take India until at least T2.


You are assuming that the British will reinforce India. Many times I've seen the British remove a good deal of India's defence in favour of re-gruping forces in Russia or Africa. Also, if the British fighters remains and you take India, that's 12 IPCs right there from Britain, which is also a painful loss. Well, I guess we can disagree on this point.
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TheJediCharles
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« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2002, 01:57:05 pm »
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...before the Imperial fleet could even get near Hawaii, Elvis would unleash his overly-dressed concubines with the behive hairdos and sink any invasion force the Japanesse could muster.





















I'm not gonna give up 'til I get a laugh.
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TG Moses VI
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« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2002, 02:27:15 pm »
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Quote from: EmuGod

You are assuming that the British will reinforce India. Many times I've seen the British remove a good deal of India's defence in favour of re-gruping forces in Russia or Africa. Also, if the British fighters remains and you take India, that's 12 IPCs right there from Britain, which is also a painful loss. Well, I guess we can disagree on this point.


Yes, like Ozone, I expect India to be fortified fortified.  Also, letting that UK frt get away is tough, but you don't want to lose 1 one of your own ftrs in the process.  What forces do you expect to land in India if UK does garrison, 3 inf, 1 ftr and 1 trns there?  How will you defend yourself in India, Burma, China is a likely counterattack by US or USSR?
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Yanny
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« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2002, 05:44:36 pm »
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Unless I'm not going all out on Germany (I do 95% of the time when I really want to win as Allies) Don't expect anything in India, it is going to be in Egypt by the end of UK1.
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