Operation Sealion a Possibility with AA1940 Europe?

[SgtBlitz]

Ok, so we NEVER get to see this in our regular Axis games...  It's impossible for Germany to invade England round 2 with ANY build that the UK player can't see coming a mile away.  Just too easy to counter with UK's starting IPCs.  But this isn't historically accurate.

How can the near annihilation of the British Expeditionary Force at Dunkirk and the Air War over Britain be accurately modeled into 1940 Europe?  Britain lost the majority of its heavy equipment at Dunkirk and was resorting to civilians armed with HUNTING RIFLES if the Jerries had in fact invaded.  If Hitler had played it just right there would have been the Italian Supermarina as well as what was left of the Kreigsmarine joining forces to blockade England as well as punch a hole for the invasion fleet.  The Air War over Britain could also have gone differently if the Germans hadn't switched from military to civilian targets for bombing raids.

So how is this going to be put into the game?  Does Goering get a second chance to prevent the naval evacuation of Dunkirk?  Does Rommel stop his panzers surrounding Dunkirk this time?  Do the Brits and the French get a second chance to stop the Ardennes offensive from occurring?  Does Germany have a better shot at invading Norway, keeping most of its fleet intact for Sealion?  Do the Germans invade Spain to take Gibraltar and allow the Italians passage to the Atlantic?  Do the French and British actually join forces and not get split up defending the Low Countries?

I'm guessing the game should play out like normal BUT UK's first turn should be at 1/2 IPC production to portray the effect Dunkirk/surprise blitzkreig had on the British Army.  The German player who wishes to try a Sealion and build all naval Round 1 would also be taking a risk since his land forces in France wouldn't get reinforced Round 2 and France could counterattack if she defended well.  The halved British income would also be more realistic as the UK has too much money at game start anyway since the Axis haven't had a chance at taking any of it yet!  Maybe submarine wolfpacks could be added to the game to blockade Britain; each turn an enemy sub remains in a SZ by a country's capital it causes 1d worth of damage to saved IPCs; this could help balance out the UK starting IPC advantage.

What do you guys think?

[WILD BILL]

Yea this game (as Larry said) could go a couple of different ways early on. You do know there are convoy zones in the game right. We don't have any details yet, but some type of economic blockade is possible.

[johnnymarr]

Per LH

When you look at the English Channel and contemplate an attack on this island nation, you will see exactly what the Germans saw… a totally depleted British land force. The only thing that stands between you and capturing London is the RAF… Good luck, you’re going to need it. If the allies end up owing so much to so few then you as the German player will suddenly have a more powerful Russian force on your door step than you would have otherwise, but what the hell - you need some Lebensraum.

[Brain Damaged]

I cant wait to fight Operation Torch against the real opponenets the Vichy French cause I like kickin' some French butt.

[SgtBlitz]

Per LH

When you look at the English Channel and contemplate an attack on this island nation, you will see exactly what the Germans saw… a totally depleted British land force. The only thing that stands between you and capturing London is the RAF… Good luck, you’re going to need it. If the allies end up owing so much to so few then you as the German player will suddenly have a more powerful Russian force on your door step than you would have otherwise, but what the hell - you need some Lebensraum.

Um, no.  How is NINETEEN FORTY Europe edition going to start with Germany and Russia at war?  Stalin and Hitler were best buds right up until Operation Barbarossa in June NINETEEN FORTY ONE... Plenty of time to rebuild and refit from Germany with Britain's capital IPCs, the way Axis and Allies works.

[johnnymarr]

Per LH

If a second round of attack is required against France then this will prove to be benificial for the Soviets. You see they (the Russians) will in no position to either defend or attack in any meaningful way. The Germans, at the same time, will also be in no position to attack Russia. As for the Russians the game set up reflects the results of their fiasco in Finland. Stalin’s purging of the army and simple old out dated military doctrine. The German military disposition on their Eastern border will reflect the friendly status that existed between Russia and Germany when these black and red fascist were good buddies. Again, this is not to say that the Russians are not well represented on the board. They are, but when the time comes it will be clear that they suffer from too many places to defend and too dispersed an army to go on the offensive against Germany. As a Russian player you can certainly attack if you want to but it would be pure suicide. In effect, Russia will spend its first 2 or 3 turns purchasing and position its armies. Each turn that goes by the Russians get stronger and a good Russian player will skillfully be busy preparing for this inevitable German on slot. How and what the German and Russian players do during these critical opening turns will set the tone for what will look and feel like Barbarossa June 22, 1941. The player making the best moves, having the best luck, and making the best decisions on how and where to place new units as well as existing units will determine the eventual out come of the "Patriotic War".

[SgtBlitz]

Per LH

If a second round of attack is required against France then this will prove to be benificial for the Soviets. You see they (the Russians) will in no position to either defend or attack in any meaningful way. The Germans, at the same time, will also be in no position to attack Russia. As for the Russians the game set up reflects the results of their fiasco in Finland. Stalin’s purging of the army and simple old out dated military doctrine. The German military disposition on their Eastern border will reflect the friendly status that existed between Russia and Germany when these black and red fascist were good buddies. Again, this is not to say that the Russians are not well represented on the board. They are, but when the time comes it will be clear that they suffer from too many places to defend and too dispersed an army to go on the offensive against Germany. As a Russian player you can certainly attack if you want to but it would be pure suicide. In effect, Russia will spend its first 2 or 3 turns purchasing and position its armies. Each turn that goes by the Russians get stronger and a good Russian player will skillfully be busy preparing for this inevitable German on slot. How and what the German and Russian players do during these critical opening turns will set the tone for what will look and feel like Barbarossa June 22, 1941. The player making the best moves, having the best luck, and making the best decisions on how and where to place new units as well as existing units will determine the eventual out come of the "Patriotic War".

Bleh.  Russia threatening Germany in 1940 Europe as a counter is laughable.  Round 1 Germany builds fleet for Sealion.  Round 1 Russia builds all infantry or builds all armor to take advantage of Ger naval build.  Round 2 Germany builds all inf and armor, takes Britain, knocks UK out of game, ganks capital IPCs.  Ger possibly finishes France but isn't main objective.  All inf and armor build in Germany.  Round 2 Russia builds all tanks to take advantage of Ger, but offensive is stopped in Poland due to Ger building before Russia's turn.  Round 3 Germany has a HUGE ton of cash from taking UK, possibly taking France Round 2.  Ger builds inf in Britain to hold from US counterattack, rest is inf and armor to throw against the Reds, France falls Round 3, Ger counterattacks against the Reds in Eastern Europe.  With two Allied capitals in hand Ger is poised to easily crush the Soviets in Eastern Europe/threaten America with leftover fleet from Sealion and base in England.  Game over.  Would be cool to try a lot of fast Round 3 decisive games like this.

I'm sure Larry will have countermeasures put into the game to stop this.  Like if Britain actually falls then the US has the prerogative to enter the war early in Fall 1940 instead of Dec 1941, so Germany then has a new front in England to defend.  Or maybe the Ger submarines attacking the convoy supply lines to Britain have a chance to trigger an American declaration of war if they kill too much shipping or something.

[Funcioneta]

This game needs a government in exile rule, specially for France and UK. It would be cool if a Sea Lion would not be a instant axis win, fighting the brits from Canada, Australia or such. And a Free France would be also cool (some troops for Africa without having to do trannie chains)

[SgtBlitz]

This game needs a government in exile rule, specially for France and UK. It would be cool if a Sea Lion would not be a instant axis win, fighting the brits from Canada, Australia or such. And a Free France would be also cool (some troops for Africa without having to do trannie chains)

Yas, that'd be a good idea.  Pretty sure the brits would of carried on from Canada and Australia, and there definitely were a lot of Free French forces in Africa and England during the war.

[Raeder]

Ok, so we NEVER get to see this in our regular Axis games...  It's impossible for Germany to invade England round 2 with ANY build that the UK player can't see coming a mile away.  Just too easy to counter with UK's starting IPCs.  But this isn't historically accurate.

In fact it is very historically accurate. In 1940 the Luftwaffe would at best have been able to gain air supremacy over parts of Britain and only for a certain period of time. About half of the RAF was out of Luftwaffes range, the British could produce aircraft and train pilots at a rate the Germans could not, the British had lots of pilots that could be retrained to fighter pilots, the British had superior air combat management with radar and by the time Luftwaffe switched to bombing London, Fighter Command was stronger than they had been in the beginning of the Battle of Britain (about 50% more fighters). Also, the Luftwaffe pilots suffered from battle fatigue (kanalenkrankheit), and the "breather" that RAF got from Luftwaffe switching to bombing London also gave the Luftwaffe a much needed "breather", and also the autumn weather was coming.

The Germans had fighters with short range (external fuel tanks could have improved it, but not much) and this meant they needed more aircraft over Britain than the British, who hade longer operational range due to being "at home". Also, Luftwaffe pilots who where shot down over Britain did not come back to fight again.

Moreover, it was not enough to gain air supremacy, the Germans also needed to defeat the Royal Navy. By the time the Luftwaffe switched to bombing London, the Germans had about one week to defeat the RAF, defeat the Royal Navy, gather an invasion fleet (wich would consist mostly of barges and the like), produce and test doctrines for amphibious invasion and conduct the landings, before the weather worsened.

A German invasion of Britain was a naive dream. The Luftwaffe's inability to defeat the RAF (they were never even close), combined with the tremendous superiority of the Royal Navy over the sad Kriegsmarine, and the Heer's non existing capacity to land troops in England and support them, meant that Unternehmen Seelöwe was never possible in reality. This was also the view of the OKW.

But that's reality. A&A is a game, and it is supposed to be fun. Conducting Operation Seelöwe is fun, especially if you succed, therefore it should be possible (although difficult as hell) in the game.

[oztea]

Government in exile rule:

If a power loses its capital, that power surrenders half of its IPCs to the invader, and half are forefit to the bank. From this point forward, the power without a capital no longer collects income normaly, instead any Industrial complexes owned by that player may, during the mobilize units phase, make a special purchase using the IPCs of that territory, as well as the IPCs of any other territory controled by that player within 3 land or water territories. IPCs generated in this way are not saved, they convert directly to units

(So in A&A 50...UK knocked out can, if it had factories in Canada it gets 4 IPCs to spend, India would get 3 for itself, 2 for burma, 1 for persia, etc...)


And to represent sea lion, & dunkirk, have some UK stuff start in france, tank, arty, and have a transport with 2 infantry in the channel when the game begins. The UK had to leave its good stuff behind. London territory starts with 1 INfantry, 2 fighters and a bomber, 1 infantry in scotland

[Brain Damaged]

Why not just start the game in 1939 and then you can do whatever you want?

[murraymoto]

Bleh.  Russia threatening Germany in 1940 Europe as a counter is laughable.  Round 1 Germany builds fleet for Sealion.  Round 1 Russia builds all infantry or builds all armor to take advantage of Ger naval build.  Round 2 Germany builds all inf and armor, takes Britain, knocks UK out of game, ganks capital IPCs.  Ger possibly finishes France but isn't main objective.  All inf and armor build in Germany.  Round 2 Russia builds all tanks to take advantage of Ger, but offensive is stopped in Poland due to Ger building before Russia's turn.  

I believe LH said USA would need to layover fighters in Iceland on the way to UK, so Ger round 3 be sure and take that out too.

Government in exile rule:

If a power loses its capital, that power surrenders half of its IPCs to the invader, and half are forefit to the bank. From this point forward, the power without a capital no longer collects income normaly, instead any Industrial complexes owned by that player may, during the mobilize units phase, make a special purchase using the IPCs of that territory, as well as the IPCs of any other territory controled by that player within 3 land or water territories. IPCs generated in this way are not saved, they convert directly to units

I like the exile idea, I just don't get why you hand over all your production capacity to the enemy when you loose your capital, or even half.  Half to the 'bank' i can understand, but I like the idea of just letting the other IC's that the UK might have get to simply reallocate the production to them. Especially with major/minor ICs now...  Maybe half to the bank or the enemy, or the conqueror gets to roll to destroy IPCs in the captured capital's hands...

Probably because it's production ability, not just supplies like Bulge.  Maybe the captured player should get to try and scorch it before being captured, that might have legs...  alas...

[Brain Damaged]

I like the exile idea, I just don't get why you hand over all your production capacity to the enemy when you loose your capital, or even half.  Half to the 'bank' i can understand, but I like the idea of just letting the other IC's that the UK might have get to simply reallocate the production to them. Especially with major/minor ICs now...  Maybe half to the bank or the enemy, or the conqueror gets to roll to destroy IPCs in the captured capital's hands...

I think you should be able to keep all your IPC's

[oztea]

it throws the game out of whack when you take a capital
you get near doubble IPC income because you get their money and the value of the capital territory. And how do you get of stealing another powers Industrial Pdoduction rpepresented in millions of man hours?

Also the loser cant keep it all with my rule, if Ger takes Moscow, then cacusses and karellia produce 6 tanks that are within range of moscow.

Losing only half, and allowing ICs to draw from other controled territories is a comprimise, in this caccusses factory gets 4 IPCs, + 5 for urals, novisibirisk, and the other SSR one if they are all soviet controled.