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Author Topic: Italian fleet kill on US3  (Read 1460 times)
dondoolee
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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2009, 02:04:35 pm »
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How does your attack hold up under an Italian Destroyer buy?  (Or Aircraft Carrier + Fighter buy adding the second fighter they start with to the fleet defense?)

Ignore the fleet.  As long as you have a big enough fleet that can't be sunk what's it matter?  If the Western Axis want to waste money on building defensive fleets make them pay by building ground units.  The game is simply not designed for the Western Axis to effectivly rule the waves.  If it was it would be a serious design flaw, making the game virtualy unwinnable for the Allies.  If the Western Axis manage to overpower the Allies in the Atlantic it is simply because the Allies are allowing it due to mistakes/poor play/ very bad luck/ or some other strat the Allies are employing that willingly does not involve dominating the Atlantic Ocean. 

The Allies' mistakes/willing concessions cause the Axis to win the Atlantic, not superior Axis play.
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Zhukov44
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« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2009, 02:52:46 pm »
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Well I can agree with that only if the Allies are preventing Italy from achieving NOs.  Sure, if Italy pours all its income into carriers that's pretty inefficient purchasing and maybe its better to let the fleet stand.  But honestly if Axis is going to put fighters on those carriers I wouldn't mind buying even more bombers as USA and bagging the whole shebang.
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Cmdr Jennifer
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« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2009, 02:58:33 pm »
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I'd throw 8 IPC into the water if it meant I kept both Italian NOs (10 IPC a round.)  I was just wondering if you played against a destroyer build. (Or even a carrier build since you have a fighter that can land on it, and Italy could really use the fighter starting in the med so it can attack both theaters of operations.)
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dondoolee
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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2009, 06:01:01 pm »
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Well I can agree with that only if the Allies are preventing Italy from achieving NOs.  Sure, if Italy pours all its income into carriers that's pretty inefficient purchasing and maybe its better to let the fleet stand.  But honestly if Axis is going to put fighters on those carriers I wouldn't mind buying even more bombers as USA and bagging the whole shebang.

My theory is if the Western Axis are putting money into defensive naval units, it would probably be best for the Allies to get very aggressive with land units.  This would probably lead to a more unified fleet, rather than UK up north and the US down south.  
It is kind of seen as a window of opportunity to put as much pressure on France as possible while simultaneously being able to double hit one Axis capital.  If the Axis put money into a defensive fleet that can be succefully ignored, you may as well ignore it. It would mean the Axis wasted money on a unit that does next to nothing for them.  My guess would be that the Axis power that would buy the naval unit essentially just volunteers itself for the Allied SBR campaign to exploit their purchass even more.

Let's say Italy decides to build a Destroyer.  The Allies would then Unify the fleet on Algeria and open their SBR campaign against Italy.  Italy would probably not be able to move the fleet due to fear of invasion, they would be lacking in ground units, and France would be threatend.

To be fair though this would not be as amplified as Axis Carrier builds.  I think that is something that the Allies could really exploit.  Ex: if Germany bought a carrier, it just spent 1/2 of it's T1 income on a unit that can not attack/bombard/and without an airplane it only defends at 2 and is only good for expensive fodder if it attacks; this seems like something the Allies could use to their advantage by simply ignoring it and SBR Germany while putting heavy pressure on France from algeria quickly, while once again double threatening Italy. The Allied fleet is maintained, it has a better chance at holding France sooner because of a unified fleet (which allows more land units to be built) and Germany would be lacking the ground/air units she would normally build due to the Carrier build/SBRing.

It's not that I think there is never a reason to build Axis naval units, I would just rather wait until after US1 to decide if I wanted to build ships or not.  Even if my Allied strat is completley wrong, I don't think there is much reason to build naval units for the Western Axis T1. And even if one insists on a naval build it should probably be a more aggressive ship.  A Cruiser allows for land bombardments at least.  Subs can be clever builds too I suppose.  Like I said, even if I am dead wrong, I can't shake the feeling that defensive T1 fleet builds by the Western should be something an Allied player could somehow exploit.

And as far as keeping 10 Italian NO's, can you?  What goes on in Egypt/ Central Asia is probably one of the bigger variables of the game.  But as far as T1 or even T2 is concerned I don't see Italy having 10 NO's a forgone conclusion in the early stages of the game.  A UK stack in Persia, a UK1 counter attack on a German Egy, A UK1 Attack on Libya, Germany not attacking Egy G1, Russian tank/air/inf counter attacks on R2 are all very real possabilities.  That coupled with quick unified pressure would keep Italian movement greatly mitigated.  Also note that the UK may be able to  afford sending her 3-4 ships worth of gear towards Egypt every turn while the US just builds up an invading force, making it impossible for Italy to do anything of note in Africa, even with a navy.  The UK force could then continue to head towards India/Persia/Cauc making the marching forces still very relevant and useful.

And yes, I have played against such builds, and have won and lost against them.  I most certainly have not played any 1 strat with much consistancy though to show any empirical evidence.  Which is odd considering I have probably played around 30-50 games of the Aniversery edition.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 08:27:46 pm by dondoolee » Logged
Lynxes
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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2009, 03:03:53 pm »
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Quote
I'd throw 8 IPC into the water if it meant I kept both Italian NOs (10 IPC a round.)  I was just wondering if you played against a destroyer build. (Or even a carrier build since you have a fighter that can land on it, and Italy could really use the fighter starting in the med so it can attack both theaters of operations.)

CmdrJennifer, I modified the build which was from the start 2 bombers and 1 carrier, in order to have some fodder units instead. It is true of course that Italy has three builds before US3 and can build more than 1CV+1DD which US alone can beat with my proposed US1 build. My idea then was to use the UK navy to finish the attack, probably on the turn after US strikes, UK4. You then send in air and fodder units, 3-4 DDs or subs, and spare your CV and CAs in sz12 to minimize losses to the UK invasion fleet. (A Russian blocking attack against TRJ is then needed to hinder Japanese deployment into the Med., and if Italy survives with a CV don't forget that figs can be flown onto it before UK moves!)

This is a simplification, of course, because you might try to hide ships in sz15/sz16 as Italy and so forth. I haven't played this myself that much yet, when I tried it Italy has acquiesced in losing their fleet but for one game where I built two bombers US1 and didn't have enough fodder units.

UK doing the killing alone I think is a bad idea. They need to be invading and sending the fleet into battle first does too much harm to it. In the example above of a double US/UK strike at the Italian fleet, you can survive with the core of your Royal Navy if you play well. In this scenario you can't invade FRA/NWE for a turn or two for a long-term benefit of destroying plenty of Axis IPCs.
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