Lets talk Bunkers/Pillboxes

[Upside-down_Turtle]

FMG will supply 6 bunkers/pillboxes for each nation. 
It is perhaps the standard rule that you have only 1 pillbox per territory, representing dug in, fortified positions.  All infantry defend on a 3. 

Can pill boxes be damaged?  If so, how much before they are destroyed.  What about shore defenses? Do they fire back at ships?  I feel using the Normandy rules as a baseline is a good place to start.   

[Imperious Leader]

I love this about you Turtle. Keep these kind of threads going!

Using the block house unit from d-day this is what i play:

Fortification unit:

attacks twice at 3 preemptively but must have one infantry to "man' the guns. The unit does not move and costs 8 IPC

you can only have one of these per territory.

Now then if you want to deal with another new unit a 'pillbox' for me would be done like this:

Different ideas here:

Entrenchment:
Each infantry may entrench by not moving on its turn and not attacking on its turn. At the start of its next turn its defense is raised to 3 for the first round of combat.

Pillbox:
These defend small islands or land territories adjacent to sea zones where an invasion may take place. They have no effect if the land territory is attacked from another land territory. Pillboxes are purchased for 2 IPC for EACH LEVEL and is limited to the IPC value of the territory. Hits can be assigned to the pillbox instead of the units defending.

Each level of pillbox allows infantry to defend at 3 for all combat rounds. the number of infantry defending at this new modification would obviously also be limited to the pillbox value.

Fortress: same as fortification unit except it can also attack naval ships passing specific straights ( Denmark, Gibraltar, English Channel, Turkish)

Underground Factories/Bunkers:
It takes 2 SBR points to effect one production point in AA50, So if America SBR Germany for 5 IPC, the actual effect is now only 2 less units can be placed in Germany.

[CalmDragon]

I like the idea of a pillbox with no attack nor defense value, affects infantry defense value, and take two SBR hits or two shore bombardment hits to take it out.  Damaged ones still function, and are repairable.  I don't think it would be a good idea to bind them to the IPC value of the territory they are residing in.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

I love this about you Turtle. Keep these kind of threads going!

Why thank you.  I figured someone ought to. 

I've seen a lot of house rules where Japanese get "pillboxes" or "dug in defenders" where infantry defend on a 3. 

I really like the entrenchment rule.  Is that in Great War 1914-1918?  I haven't read the rules. 

I've been wondering, "bunkers/pillboxes"...are they two different pieces, or are they 1 piece that's supposed to represent both? 

The d-day rules, though they are a baseline, seem to me to be a bit too "tactical", if you know what I mean. 

For amphibious invasions and shore defenses, maybe something like a "sea AA Gun", where it fires against each bombarding ship in the opening fire stage.  I think this rule was also in D-day, however, and I did just say it was "too tactical".  Oh well, once we get a good idea of what FMG will provide us, I'm sure hammering out the kinks in the battle system won't be too hard. 

[Imperious Leader]

I really like the entrenchment rule.  Is that in Great War 1914-1918?  I haven't read the rules. 

yes except tanks ( technology upgrade)  each reduce entrench bonus at 2:1, and stormtroopers ( again tech upgrade) reduce it 1:1

[Upside-down_Turtle]

Storm troopers? Intresting.  Maybe for my new FMG pieces, I can make the elite German infantry a storm trooper.

[Imperious Leader]

Stosstrupen were special tench raiders that bypassed enemy strong points and used lots of grenades and flamethrowers against entrenched enemy. This was a WW1 thing only. Of course stormtroopers existed in ww2, but its role was different because tanks overcame the static defensive minded direction of the Great War.

[Emperor_Taiki]

yah i think anything labled stormtooper in world war 2 were probobly just political soldiers

[Baron Munchhausen]

Hello,
my suggestion: bunkers/pillboxes: att 0 def 0 move 0 cost 2. Can take 1 hit. Can be rebuilt at cost of 1, if the territory is not conquered.

Must be built on a territory owned at the start of your turn (like IC)  (and, if its an island, the sea-zone is not enemy-occupied), also required a minimum of 1 INF or ART on the territory and no more than two bunkers per given territory can be built (if you have 2 INF or ART, or 1 INF & 1 ART at the start of the turn).  

Advantages: it can soak any one hit during a battle (just like BB).
Can be rebuilt: cost 1 IPC, if you still owned the territory at the beginning of your turn and their is still 1 INF or ART alive.

What do you think?
Too unbalancing in favor of the Axis and specially Japan?
Must be combined with Marines or Elite units to counterweight it?

[Baron Munchhausen]

Instead of bunkers/pillboxes,
I call it reinforced positions: Att 0 Def +1 Mov 0 Cost 1, gives +1 to any INF or ART on defense, as long as it did not move.

Must be built on a territory owned at the start of your turn (like IC) and, if its an island, the sea-zone is not enemy-occupied, also required a minimum of 1 INF or ART on the territory and no more than two reinforced positions per given territory can be built (if you have 2 INF or ART, or 1 INF & 1 ART at the start of the turn).

[Baron Munchhausen]

If we combine both later suggestions bunker and reinforced defensive position:

for 3 IPC you can have an ART or an INF on an island having DEF 3 and takes 1 hit before losing unit.

If their is 2 INF (or 2 ART, or 1 INF and 1 ART) on a given island, and pay 6 IPC,
this will give 2 units with DEF 3 and be able to soak 2 hits before taking damage.

The advantage is that you don't have to move any other unit to upgrade a given defensive position:
but 2@3+ 2 hits is quite as powerful as 4@2 (4 INF defending same cost: 2 INF + 6 IPC/2 INF).

Maybe it is still too much and must be limited to 1 Bunker/pillboxes and 1 reinforced position per territory.

What could you say?

[Imperious Leader]

This type of unit should be like a port.

Takes the same damage/rules as Port or Airbase.

Makes any three units with it defend at 4 ( minus damage)

cost could be 6 or 12 ( not sure, but probably 6)

Only one per territory.

[Baron Munchhausen]

Hi IL,
where are those rules for airbase or port?
I don't know them since I play only on 1941 and 1942?
Thanks,

[Imperious Leader]

as per global 1940

[Baron Munchhausen]

Makes any three units with it defend at 4 ( minus damage) cost could be 6 or 12 ( not sure, but probably 6)

Only one per territory.

If its limited to one per territory, it will only cost 3.
It boosts and protects only 1 INF or ART (not 3 units) and can be place anywhere either island or inland.
By

Makes any three units with it defend at 4

, do you imply any type such Inf Art and Arm, so its still only one unit that get boosted ?