• I have a question regarding transports in battle and their new found status as no longer being used for fodder.  Let me set this up with an example:

    The attacker tries to do an amphibious attack.  Defender has two subs.  Attacker brings one sub and four transports.  Attacker hits on rd one (or misses doesn’t really matter) but the defender gets two hits in defense.  Of course, the attackers sub is dead, but what about the transports and the second hit that needs to assigned?  In this instance would you only lose one transport as the second hit and be able to retreat the other three?  Lose all four since they can’t be taken as fodder?  Lose no transports because of the ‘no fodder’ rule and be able to retreat all four?

    To me, in cases where there are more hits than non-transport units, I would think that taking transports for casualties as needed would be the proper way to resolve it.

  • Official Q&A

    Transports are only automatically destroyed when they’re “defenseless”.  Attacking transports are almost never defenseless, since they can retreat.  If they can’t retreat for some reason, and their protection is destroyed, they become defenseless.

    In your example, if the transports can retreat, the second hit would be applied to one of the transports.  If they can’t retreat, all of them would be destroyed.


  • Something I just remembered…can transports block combat movement?

    For instance, if I have a fleet 2 SZ away from another, could a lonely enemy TRN standing between them block my attack?


  • @Hobbes:

    Something I just remembered…can transports block combat movement?

    For instance, if I have a fleet 2 SZ away from another, could a lonely enemy TRN standing between them block my attack?

    My guess is that it can… it is still a unit (a defenseless one), but it is a unit.  Like using an AA gun in Revised to stop a blitzing tank, I imagine the transport can do the same here.

    Mr K… did I guess correctly ?  : )


  • I believe someone had answered this some where, it (the transport) can’t stop units from going thru its sea zone.

    "He mentions leaving a transport in a sea zone as a block. This won’t work anymore. Units can move through a sea zone containing only enemy transports without stopping if they wish."

    But still, if this wasn’t krieghund answering, we should still get his comments.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    I’m just not sure about the real benefit of this change to the transport rules. I feel like its going to introduce a lot of confusion into the naval game, but at this point I don’t see the upside.

    I understand the argument that the nerfed transports are supposed to force the purchase of more capital ships (destroyers, carriers etc.) but I’m concerned that people are just going to buy ton of subs and bombers, and be totally conservative with all their other naval units.

  • Official Q&A

    Only surface warships block sea movement.  Transports and subs don’t.  When a sea unit moves into a sea zone with only transports and/or subs (in either combat or noncombat movement), it can stop or keep going.  If it ends its combat movement in such a sea zone, it can attack those units or ignore them.  You can’t pick and choose, however.  You either attack all of the units in a sea zone or you attack none of them.

    Of course, the normal rules of combat movement still apply.  You can’t make a combat movement if you’re not attacking, with certain exceptions.  There are only two reasons you would move into a sea zone containing only transports and/or subs in combat movement and not attack them.  One is if you are moving to escape combat because your ships started their turn in a sea zone with enemy units and you wanted to flee rather than fight.  The other is if you are making an amphibious assault and either don’t have any warships to attack them or want to use your battleships and/or cruisers for bombardment (they can’t do both).

    The net effect of all of this is that you can’t use transports and subs as cheap blockers anymore.  They won’t screen your fleet, and they won’t keep battleships and cruisers from supporting amphibious assaults with bombardment.  You need a surface warship (DD, CA, CV or BB) to do that.


  • @Black_Elk:

    I’m just not sure about the real benefit of this change to the transport rules. I feel like its going to introduce a lot of confusion into the naval game, but at this point I don’t see the upside.

    I understand the argument that the nerfed transports are supposed to force the purchase of more capital ships (destroyers, carriers etc.) but I’m concerned that people are just going to buy ton of subs and bombers, and be totally conservative with all their other naval units.

    First thanks Krieghund for the no more tranny blocking explanation;
    We have played three games now using the new unit values and tech tree rules,
    (we use the classic battlewagon as our cruisers.)  There is a lot of Naval action,
    especially Subs, destroyers-with fighter support and cruisers.
    Larry has hit an excellent balance with the Naval units,  what a difference it made to move to combat ships instead of Tranny fodder.
    No, not conservetive play, just the opposite, the reduced costs of the units, have put them into action.  You are not afraid to use them, or hold them in reserve for that big push.  Fricken subs are everywhere.  Which means you better have destroyers. 
    Note: we use the hidden rule-where subs orders are written down on paper and you only see them when a destroyer finds em or you attack out of the blue… and at 6 IPC there are a lot of subs(add improved ship yards Tech at 5 IPC the wolf pack is back.)


  • I love the new rules  :lol:

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    That’s going to put a huge fundamental shift in traditional naval strategies.  For years now (since the beginning) submarines and transports were the go to unit for naval warfare because they were cheap and could be used to block enemy actions against your fleet allowing you to press in further than you normally would be allowed too and be safe.

    Did they, by any chance, give us a really cheap surface ship to replace that function?  (Like a 3 IPC attack 0, defend 1 would be nice. heh.)


  • @Black_Elk:

    Fricken subs are everywhere.  Which means you better have destroyers. 
    Note: we use the hidden rule-where subs orders are written down on paper and you only see them when a destroyer finds em or you attack out of the blue… and at 6 IPC there are a lot of subs(add improved ship yards Tech at 5 IPC the wolf pack is back.)

    I’ve never heard of this house rule before, but I’m greatly intrigued. At what point do the subs ‘disapear’ after they’ve been built? And with combat, do they ‘disapear’ immediately following combat phase? Those of you who’ve tried it with other A&A games, does this rule make subs overpowered?  I can see that this rule can cause some real headaches for the Allies, which is always entertaining. In anycase, I’m definitely going to try this one.


  • Remember Cmdr,

    At 8 IPC Destroyers cost what transports used too, but they screen with an attack/defend value of 2.  So, for the same price of the old transport, we have some punch.  If you used to attempt to use subs/trannys as screens, they were prone to easy air picks, now with destroyers screening, we have some AA cover at 2 as opposed to a trannys 1, or a subs inability to respond to air, it bears out in play. 
    This was a thing of beauty, minor changes, with big impact, nice.
    Yet, I like your, tongue in cheek throw away, (3 IPC Atk 0/DEF 1, cheap unit,) Corresponding to real units like, S-boats, R-boats, PT-boats, midget subs etc… a cheap Aux unit- I like it, this has merit.


  • Destroyers are the ‘infantry of the seas’ as they should be. I knew this day would come and it finally has.


  • @Admiral:

    @Black_Elk:

    Fricken subs are everywhere.  Which means you better have destroyers. 
    Note: we use the hidden rule-where subs orders are written down on paper and you only see them when a destroyer finds em or you attack out of the blue… and at 6 IPC there are a lot of subs(add improved ship yards Tech at 5 IPC the wolf pack is back.)

    I’ve never heard of this house rule before, but I’m greatly intrigued. At what point do the subs ‘disapear’ after they’ve been built? And with combat, do they ‘disapear’ immediately following combat phase? Those of you who’ve tried it with other A&A games, does this rule make subs overpowered?  I can see that this rule can cause some real headaches for the Allies, which is always entertaining. In anycase, I’m definitely going to try this one.

    item:We place them in play at IP Factory, as usual at the end of your turn. 
    ( We believe intelligence networks nominaly alerted commands, of vessels leaving sub pens. ) 
    item: Next, during your combat movement you submerge (move) the sub to side of the board, with a territory control marker and write down what sea zone it moved. 
    Each turn, even if the sub holds station, you must write in the seazone and turn.
    when you attack, you have proof of route to the attack. 
    It gives subs, what they were, stealth/ambush strikes. 
    note:If, destroyers are ever present in a sea zone, your subs must be revealed and placed on board, this is automatic.
    item:OOps forgot, once exposed in combat,  contact revealed their( the subs ) position, now known, you can not submerge, until normal Revised rules, either thru retreated combat submerge, or your next move phase. 
    We did not elaborate into ASW dice roles.  Depends on your complexity level here, maybe something you could add for advanced play.
    Wd don’t claim credit for this rule.
    I believe someone on this site already provided it.  We just use it.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Thank you for the compliment, Bluestroke.

    In case anyone wonders, yes, I have played with the 3 IPC naval unit that cannot attack but can defend. (basically a transport that cannot transport anything.)  We actually play tested it at 5 IPC first, but it was not cheap enough to make it viable (submarines were just better because they could attack.)  Later we decided to try it at 3 IPC (because at the time we were playing classic and there was nothing that cost 4 IPC without technology - which we outlawed until after game turn 20 and then everyone automatically got Heavy Bombers and Long Range Aircraft.)  3 IPC seemed to work.


    Back on topic.  Do we have an eta on release date and when someone will scan the rules into PDF?


  • @Cmdr:

    Do we have an eta on release date and when someone will scan the rules into PDF?

    An underground police force has been formed to keep all PDFs off the internets until after you have played at least one game FTF.  :evil:

    I seem to remember reading Oct. 23rd as the scheduled release date.


  • I really like these house rules on stealth submarines Bluestroke. Thanks. I can really only see two problems that could come from them…

    First, all the players must be very diligent in their order writing. How tragic would it be to incorrectly write an order, or forget, thereby causing your whole plan to fail. Although this kind of adds an exciting flavor to the game which simulates a failure of communication lines. I really like this! On the flip side however, what happens to a sub if a series of movements culminating in some sort of combat situation are discovered to be based off of an incorrect, or impossible movement made much earlier in the units lifetime? Does this negate that particular submarines activity since that incorrect order? Does that submarine have to withdraw from that combat situation, or is it played out regardless of that earlier error?

    Second, all the players must be completely honest with each other when a submarine is found by a destroyer, whether it be by accident or on purpose. If one player isn’t completely honest, then the game could become very frustrating and a source of bitter arguments.  What type of repercussions do you use to deter those from committing such deceit ? Perhaps eliminating that submarine from play would be appropriate?

    Hopefully all the people I play with have enough brains to avoid screwing things up, and have enough dignity to not cheat.  :lol:

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Stealth submarines would be doable.  We once played with two boards and a Game Master.  You could only “see” units adjacent too your units or if you did a pre-combat move which was a “scout” by sending a fighter up to two territories out and back to see what was there.

    It was a good way to chew up fighters and prevent them from attacking because they were now “moved” and could not engage in combat or NCM.

    It was a pain on the game master though.  He had to do a lot of running back and forth to make sure things were correct on both boards.

    But it was fun!

    For instance, in one game, Japan conquered England! (And yes, England was the first to fall, Japan just sailed around Africa and up with 3 transports loaded with 4 infantry, 1 armor - this was classic, so that’s full transports)


    I want a PDF of the rules.  I’ll buy the dang game, I just don’t want to break the shrink wrap on it!


  • @Admiral:

    I really like these house rules on stealth submarines Bluestroke. Thanks. I can really only see two problems that could come from them…

    First, all the players must be very diligent in their order writing. How tragic would it be to incorrectly write an order, or forget, thereby causing your whole plan to fail. Although this kind of adds an exciting flavor to the game which simulates a failure of communication lines. I really like this! On the flip side however, what happens to a sub if a series of movements culminating in some sort of combat situation are discovered to be based off of an incorrect, or impossible movement made much earlier in the units lifetime? Does this negate that particular submarines activity since that incorrect order? Does that submarine have to withdraw from that combat situation, or is it played out regardless of that earlier error?

    Yes, the sub attacker must prove his path.  Any navigation mistakes cause the sub to be relocated back to where it should be, its actual locale, is exposed without an attack.
    navigation incompetence is punished
    .

    Second, all the players must be completely honest with each other when a submarine is found by a destroyer, whether it be by accident or on purpose. If one player isn’t completely honest, then the game could become very frustrating and a source of bitter arguments.  What type of repercussions do you use to deter those from committing such deceit ? Perhaps eliminating that submarine from play would be appropriate?

    yes, integrity is required.  When destroyers enter sea zones, they have the right to demand sub review, so no one can feign ignorance.

    Hopefully all the people I play with have enough brains to avoid screwing things up, and have enough dignity to not cheat.  :lol:

    We enjoy it, the extra surprise element adds to the texture of the game.


  • Does anyone know (Krieghund?) what happens to transports when the following situation occurs:
    A BB plus (loaded) trn moves into a seazone to conduct an amphibious assault. In the seazone are present a BB and a trn. The battleships start to go off at each other and both are destroyed.

    What happens to the transports? Can they both keep on occupuying the same seazone (until one side sends in combat units) since they are not combat units? Can the amphibious assault still take place?

    Another question I have is regarding subs and transports. For example take the German Baltic fleet. There are 1 ss, 1 ca and 1 trn there.

    Let’s suppose there are no changes when it is UK’s turn and they attack it with their air (2 ftr, 1 bmb). The UK air combats the cruiser and wins easily. What happens next? Is the transport automatically destroyed even though there still remains combat units? (planes cannot see the subs and vice versa). So in the end only the sub remain?

    If this is the case it would mean that the Baltic fleet is of not much use to Germany. Even less than in Revised/Classic.

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