G U A R D - german submarine and air strategy for AA50

[Lynxes]

German
U-boat
Atlantic
Retaliation
Deterrent

Originally, my post presented an idea for an elaborate strategy involving sub and air attacks vs. an invasion fleet. As my fellow-forumers pointed out, however, a single DD can block subs from getting farther than the North Sea and then UK can safely land in France or Norway and only have to defend vs. air units on their own. So, will AA50 be a change from A&A Revised when it comes to Germany and naval builds? I rest my case here on a sub strategy and leave the floor open! Can you help me out?

Ps. This is not a game-breaking thing for me, I'll buy the game and enjoy it even though I won't buy a single sub as Germany, it's just a thing I hoped AA50 would adress in order to come closer to history where subs were a real danger will into 1943 for the UK. Ds.

[Corbeau Blanc]

Only flaw i see is that your cruiser and transport are still vulnerable to air attack. Your subs won't do much to help you defend thoses.

Also, you need to post in 1941 strategy forum

[captainjack]

I like your strategy; but correct me if I'm wrong, but all the UK needs to do to deter your plan is spend 8 IPC on a DD...
Thanks!

[Adlertag]

I like your strategy; but correct me if I'm wrong, but all the UK needs to do to deter your plan is spend 8 IPC on a DD...
Thanks!

lol   

[Sherman Tank]

Air power and destroyers will destroy that strategy, but it will take time to build these units for the UK. This may be a good strategy if the Germans want to disrupt the Allied shipping chain.

[03321]

Germany goes before UK, allowing them to place subs in the Baltic before UK can move DDs into range of the Baltic.  Then when the UK DOES move a DD in range, Germany takes the DD out with sub + air.  I believe that is what he wants to happen.  And then if the UK tries to move its entire naval force to land, it will be in range of the subs.  The problem I see is with UK moving 1 DD to block (subs can't bypass destroyers, right?), while moving the rest of the navy into a sea zone behind it for a landing, then taking out the subs on their next turn.

[Lynxes]

This is a bit embarassing, but I actually didn't think of the DD block in North Sea counter...  Perhaps the idea of subs actually being a worthwhile buy for the first time in Axis & Allies history got me carried away and stopped my brain from working correctly!

This was the only strategy I could think of where Germany could use subs in a constructive way. So, if sub rules stand as they are with regard to sub movement, this strategy fails. Yes, subs can survive in the Baltic, but if they won't get further than the North Sea the game is still flawed... 

Krieghund, if the rules haven't been printed yet, send Larry an email and ask him to change sub movement...

[Greand Stone]

The main problem I see with your plan is that UK in the 41 senario starts with 43 (?) IPC, and can spend every single penny on
a counter move. And UK starts with quit a lot of destroiers allready. Build a few subs as germany might be usefull FIRST round, but my guess is that after first round, UK will have a larger fleet and be able to kill subs very easily.
Building 2 subs meight still be nice first round as it forces UK to build ships and maybe it can delay the invation of europe.

UK might want subs to kill the Italian fleet.
US and Japan might want subs to fight in the pacific.
Italy might ofcourse need a few subs.
So subs will definitivly be usefull in AA50, sadly not so usefull for Germany I guess.

But one question about subs: What happens if 3 subs attack 2 carriers with 4 planes?
: can the planes defend? (no Destroyers in the defending fleet)
: can planes be takes as cassulty?

If the answere is no to both these question, the fact that Japan starts with very few destroyers will be a very very big limitation for them. US can build a few very deadly submarines which can litteraly destroy the Japan fleet.

[03321]

: can the planes defend? (no Destroyers in the defending fleet)
: can planes be takes as cassulty?

no and no

[Krieghund]

Cruisers and battleships can still be a fairly effective sub screen for carriers.  They won't allow the fighters to hit subs, but they can still fire back themselves, and they can take the bullet for the carriers.  Leaving carriers unescorted isn't a very good policy when there are subs about.

[Corbeau Blanc]

For the UK moving a destroyer to block sea zone so their fleet behind it can strike the next turn, i don't see it as a great counter.

If german send it's own ship to take the destroyer out, it will end it's turn there and effectively screen the rest of its sub in the zone behind from an attack. Even if it is destroyed as casulaty to avoid air loss, German can move another ship in non combat move in the now empty zone.

German main goal is to defend baltic zone, which is still accomplished.

[Lynxes]

/corbeaublanc

I've now changed my first post and made it more of an open question if the Germans will buy subs in the game at all. The idea for my strategy was not to defend the Baltic but to delay an invasion to win the war against the Russians.

[Corbeau Blanc]

It will delay a direct invasion of Germany.

Might want to spice things up and have your own transports. A combination of a CV early on and then full subs like you intended. I'm pretty sure you can still use your subs as casualties.

That way you maintain a sea lion threat while still enforcing your policy. The single destroyer will not prevent you to move in for amphibious assault.

At worst case, use Italy planes to kill that destroyer blocking your fleet. Can opener the way and then sink the main UK fleet with your strat on Germany's turn.

[Obergruppenfuhrer]

One thing I loved about "Europe" is that instead of an advanced or veteran rule; (ie: A & A) you actually start out with a realistic amount of Atlantic subs to disrupt the shipping lanes like they so effectively did early in the war.

[captainjack]

One thing I loved about "Europe" is that instead of an advanced or veteran rule; (ie: A & A) you actually start out with a realistic amount of Atlantic subs to disrupt the shipping lanes like they so effectively did early in the war.

Yeah, I like that too.