AARHE: Convoy Raids

[Bierwagen]

Well, my attempt to get the gang to play the full version failed last weekend.  I tried to show them how flowchart and how the concept of "Convoy Raids" worked and it caused a mental melt-down.  That was just page 1!

So, they rolled back to Lite on one board and played quasi 4.0 on the other (without all the Naval rules...) I was bored to tears and severely demoralized.

So, I need some clarification on Convoy Raids.

Case:
If multiple Japanese IPC Paths trace from all their islands to the mainland are they all penalized individually, or collectively? 

I said they are limited in IPC damage by the amounts of enemy SS in the region they are trying to ship through (e.g., 1 IPC per SS in the region).  Victim determines losses.

It didn't seem that complicated to me.

Perhaps it will require putting some of those zones like AA Europe in the sea so people don't have to think so hard.  They just point to the zone, count the SS there, and grunt (n.b., yes, apparently I play with Neanderthals).

Any clarifications appreciated.

[Imperious Leader]

I am playing Badminton tonight. Ill answer these latter.

To make it easier just place a token in the effected SZ to designate convoy interruption points, so you dont have to keep looking at the chart.

They are traced individually not collectively.

1 IPC lost per SS in the SZ loss deducted from that owning players bank

[Bierwagen]

They are traced individually not collectively.

Oh, now you're scaring me.

So, Japan is trying to send 3 IPC from Philippines (SZ 49) & 1 IPC from Okinawa (SZ 58) to Japan and US has 1 SS in SZ 57 what happens:

1 IPC from Okinawa is destroyed
1 IPC from Philippines is destroyed
2 IPC from Philippines arrive in Japan

- or -

Japan loses 1 IPC and 3 IPC arrive in Japan

[Imperious Leader]

So, Japan is trying to send 3 IPC from Philippines (SZ 49) & 1 IPC from Okinawa (SZ 58) to Japan and US has 1 SS in SZ 57 what happens:

1 IPC from Okinawa is destroyed
1 IPC from Philippines is destroyed
2 IPC from Philippines arrive in Japan

- or -

Japan loses 1 IPC and 3 IPC arrive in Japan

The American sub cost Japan 1 IPC.. THATS IT. It does this because its located in one of Japans convoy sea zones. If America had 10 subs in that same SZ it would cost japan 10 IPC..so start buying subs as USA.

[tekkyy]

extracts of the written rule...
"each hostile submarines destroys 1 IPC per turn"
"damage is allocated by victim to IPC of the path"

So 1 US submarine in SZ57 can only cause 1 IPC damage.
This is not "deducted from that owning players bank". This is allocated to a path by the victim.

(Idea is that submarines can not attack resources on land, they only attack shipping. No enemy shipping = no damage.)

We also don't have "convoy sea zones". They are good in their own ways but restrictive and not dynamic. Rather than considering individual SZs, AARHE sections the sea into general areas.

[Bierwagen]

Beautiful!  This is how I understood it, and tried to explain it -- however, it got all distorted when it came out.

I didn't see it as that difficult of a concept.  The oceans are broken up into zones of control.  Each enemy sub in that region costs you an IPC if you ship IPCs through that zone.

So IL, have you considered outlining the zones on the map?  Part of th issue was trying to remember what SZ's are contained in each zone.

Thanks for the clarification. 

[Imperious Leader]

I have not because it would look cheesy and its not too hard to just place control markers in them.

I suppose i can make convoy boxes on the map.

[tekkyy]

if we draw boxes
it must not confuse people as to think it is the particular SZ adjacent to the boxes that are grouped together

some sections are pretty big

[Imperious Leader]

You can draw boxes or i can make decals you stick on the map you have. Which do you prefer?

[Bierwagen]

I'm sure I have some of that thin map tape lying around from my days in the planning cells -- I'll try some tricks with different colors.

National markers don't really do the trick because noone "owns" the SZs.  But outlining the different SZs in colors should do the trick. 

IL:  A thin wide transparent color under the black lines outlining the different regions would look good I think.

[Imperious Leader]

ok ill see what i can do

[Bierwagen]

I'm finding Convoy Raids to be much more involved that I originally thought.  I'm thinking the concept of Convoy Zone boxes from AAE or AAP would simplify the process.

Assume I have 6 German subs raiding the North Atlantic (e.g., SZ 1-12, & 19).  When it is the Allied turn to Collect Income, who looses income?

Do all three (e.g., US/UK/USSR - Lend Lease) feel the sting of the U-Boat for 6 IPC each, or do they decide among them who is to lose 6 IPC -- or do the Germans decide who they want to hit?  (n.b., though technically early in the game US could only 4 for Brazil & West Indies).

If all 3 countries lose 6 IPC, then you have german submarines operating at up to 3 times what the allied submarines can do and it seems a bit out of balance.  The US would get double taxed so to speak during Lend Lease.

With the Convoy Zones boxes you know whose income is effected and you don't have to worry about sorting this out.

Any insights or clarifications I'm missing from the rules?

[Imperious Leader]

Assume I have 6 German subs raiding the North Atlantic (e.g., SZ 1-12, & 19).  When it is the Allied turn to Collect Income, who looses income?

The sea zones as per the list in the 4.0 outline which zones are under protection of each player. If Germany has subs in uk zones, then on Germany s turn the UK player loses 1 IPC per sub in the effected zones. Its just like when you lose IPC during SBR. Its extremely simple: say a German sub manages to move adjacent to UK ( not sure what SZ that is but im sure its a protected zone).,.. that sub forces UK to lose 1 IPC on his next turn.  It works for surface ships too BTW.

Do all three (e.g., US/UK/USSR - Lend Lease) feel the sting of the U-Boat for 6 IPC each, or do they decide among them who is to lose 6 IPC -- or do the Germans decide who they want to hit?  (n.b., though technically early in the game US could only 4 for Brazil & West Indies).

NO your making this way more complicated. Each nation as per the 4.0 has its own set of SZ. One sub only removes 1 IPC to that one nation where its sitting in and if by chance its a sea zone where two nations have the same, then its up to them who loses the point.

With the Convoy Zones boxes you know whose income is effected and you don't have to worry about sorting this out.

Any insights or clarifications I'm missing from the rules?

these are basically convoy zones, we just don't draw them on the map because it creates independent zones inside of zones and we don't want extra spaces .

all you have to do is look at the convoy chart and place a national token in each sea zone that can be attacked by anybody. Thats about 40 seconds. then you don't have to do anything except try to get to those spaces and attack the enemy. simple see?

[Bierwagen]

Thanks.  I was looking for a little clarity where I saw ambiguity. 

I can hear the arguments already about what IPCs get affected and who gets to decide, and I wanted something I could point to.

The people I play with get very creative with thier interpretations -- and when there are generalities in the rules, are able to generate options faster than I can explain them away.

It's that whole when trying to "idiot-proof" the rules, they'll make better idiots... thing.

[Imperious Leader]

The 4.0 needs to be read literally. Their are no tricks hidden where you read into it and assume all kinds of things that were not described. Because it does not say you cant roll for flying Rodan attacks does not mean that can be extrapolated as possible if the rules don't describe it. Its meant to be read intuitively so refreshing the rules will come easier.