Will I need my capital later guys?

[Bean]

I may very well be reniventing the wheel here, but it is a new idea for me, I haven't seen it posted before, and it may help someone else:

Consider seriously running away from your capital if it looks like the next turn it will be taken (even taking into consideration the units you build this turn).

The reason why is based on an old principle that you don't want to lose more unit value than the enemy does in a battle. For instance if Russia has 30 inf in Moscow and the Japanese have an assorted offense of 20 inf 11 arm 6 fig 1 bom, it is probably a good time to run the hell away with the 30 inf, and spend whatever income you have that turn to research rockets or just use it up to build a few land units so the Japanese don't get that extra cash.

That battle usually results in the Japanese winning soundly, which could easily turn the game around in terms of both economy from the capital taken and that the Japanese take out more IPCs of units than they lost.

If you run away though, those 30 Russian inf could be very helpful down the road as the other 2 Allies take down Germany and now need to overcome a monstrous Japan.

The point could be put simply - if it looks probable you're going to lose your capital, do the smart thing and don't lose both your capital and a lot of troops at lower cost to the enemy; just lose the capital and save the troops for later.

Or if you like to think of things in TUV (total unit value), you don't want the offender to make a net gain on TUV over your team if you can help it, so sac the capital today and keep your TUV edge to help out later, instead of fighting a losing battle and giving the enemy the long term win.

This may not be an option normally, and you should indeed try to hold your capital for as long as possible for obvious reasons as Germany/Russia. This tactic might generally work better for Russia as Germany usually wants to wait it very long, using its massive defenses against split attackers, but in any case keeping the idea in the back of one's mind is a good thing.

Any thoughts?

[Subotai]

I think I agree with u, but I have only experienced once, several months ago, that in a game where ��� captured
Moscow, allies took Berlin 2-3 rnds after Moscow fell. We moved out all aircraft, at least all UK+US ftrs etc.
Allies won, but it is very unusual that u win after losing a capital. I think this only happens once in 20-30 games etc.
Another scenario might be if ��� will surely take Moscow, and u can't stop it, but UK/US will take Berlin, then allies
will usually have advantage because the tt's in Europe are worth more than Asia.
So if u lose a capital, and cannot take it back and hold it, or if u cannot take one of the capitals of your opponent, then u
lose. This is general rule. If u can take your opponents capital the same rnd u lose one cap, then u r still in the game possibly,
or else u have to take it the next rnd, and if not then only a miracle can save u.

[Bean]

Yeah basically if you're going to lose your capital, don't do what common sense tells you and sacrifice a large pile of units in the deal. Just run your units away in the reasonable hope that your allies are about to take a capital as well, and use your big pile of units later to help defend and push back. It's not even a matter of trying to retake your capital, it's all about avoiding a bad unit trade for a bad reason.

Yes your capital is important but you shouldn't sit there on it like a duck and lose a massive unit advantage in addition to the loss of economy.

[U-505]

Actually, my policy with Germany is usually to take Southern Europe with everything in Germany right before the hammer comes down from Eastern Europe to knock out their ability to place units there next turn and then I attack Western Europe the following turn to make the Allies go backwards away from Russia to give Japan an extra turn to either take Russia or advance further into Europe with much less resistance.

[axis_roll]

Actually, my policy with Germany is usually to take Southern Europe with everything in Germany right before the hammer comes down from Eastern Europe to knock out their ability to place units there next turn and then I attack Western Europe the following turn to make the Allies go backwards away from Russia to give Japan an extra turn to either take Russia or advance further into Europe with much less resistance.

That's not bad... I'll have to keep that in mind in the future.

thanks!

[Cmdr Jennifer]

I used to do it all the time.  But only with Russia - obviously.  Didn't work out so well.  My idea was that I could run the Russian army over to help defend against Germany and suicide them on Berlin to lighten it.  My other idea was I could use the Russian army to move back and threaten Japanese production.

Neither worked out too well, unfortunately.  Maybe I didn't do it right, but I think it's more a matter of Japan can easily outflank you with tanks and manpower if you run back and Germany can usually turtle up well enough to allow Japan in the back door to free them.

[Bean]

Run to Archangel, Karelia, then E. Europe. Usually Japan doesn't have enough pure tanks to kill your stack, usually relies on a lot of infantry shielding which can't catch up to you if you run. Plus you can always leave behind 1 inf to block a blitz if that's what worries you.

Even if it doesn't work out so well, it would almost certainly work out worse if you stayed in a losing battle.

Plus Japan has to be careful of liberating European territories; if they do so then the Allies will just get more dollars out of capturing Berlin, and those territories will be dead to both sides until the Allies can push back and take them - on their own time and terms.

[Imperious Leader]

I think your ability or need to run away from the homeland depends on your current forces. When your down material and income it does not make sence to exchange and this must be avoided. But if you retreat you need to ask: Is your force composed of offensive points to give it reasonable chances for success or by exchange you cost the enemy of his best troops and imbalance him for a blow elsewhere?

if you cant retake the capital and your already isolated from support. its probably best to defend and take as much of him as possible.

But if holding down his forces far away from another front that is going to be opened... then you can save your game, because his power will be moving back to the weak side and leaving you alone or reducing the odds.

Its like what the Americans did on operation Torch.. landed in Morocco, and Rommel had to abandon his flank against the 8th army. If this didn't happen he would have kept pressure on Monty. It was like a deck of cards in late 1942 Africa

[Bean]

Good point, there is that 10-20% that you could do severe damage to the opponent by staying, that should also be considered.

[Cmdr Jennifer]

Actually, I think it would depend on how weak Germany is.

I might consider running from Moscow and letting the Japanese get it, staying 1 move ahead of the Japanese infantry, if I can knock Germany back enough that England can take it then America can reinforce it so it cannot be liberated.

The best part is, Japan's been liberating the land behind me, so they cannot collect for it until I take it, and I'm not taking it until I can hold it.  Also, Europe is > Russia in value. (38 IPC if you include Norway vs 24 IPC.)

[Aretaku]

I actually used this in a game a few weeks ago. America was placing his focus on the Pacific, and GB and Russia were being kicked around by Germany (mainly due to NAs).

Since Japan was weak on the ground in Asia, we decided to abandon Moscow two turns before it would have been captured by Germany. A large, mixed Russian force was able to liberate India (giving Britain an IC) and eventually kick Japan off of the mainland with aid from American landings in Bury. The 8 INF built in Moscow did nothing to slow Germany down, but Japan was reduced to only Japan and valueless islands by that point. With Japan unable to do much of anything, Germany tried to take London before America could transfer more fleet to the Atlantic. It didn't work, and cost him most of his airforce.

We won the game by concession, and we never did retake Moscow. 

[Bean]

Yeah you don't have to retake the capital you abandoned immediately, but you can really put those units to good action.

And it would have been better I think to roll tech dice for rockets instead of building some paltry inf force as the last build before the capital goes under ^^

[Cmdr Jennifer]

I disagree, building units with the money is better then tech rolls because your units just built can act as a rear guard taking down some enemies, but more importantly, making him attack with significant force instead of just moving one guy in to occupy the land.

[axis_roll]

I disagree, building units with the money is better then tech rolls because your units just built can act as a rear guard taking down some enemies, but more importantly, making him attack with significant force instead of just moving one guy in to occupy the land.

Mrs Units 2007 speaks up.... get more inf!

Actually I think if you're gonna get clobbered already that you are running away from 20+ units already (I just picked a number), would 5 inf really do that much good?

I think rolling for 3 tech for rockets is not a bad idea (novel for sure)... take them guns with you and go.  That tech could live on, whereas those 5 guys are dead for sure.

[Cmdr Jennifer]

Interesting, I hadn't considered the idea of bringing the rockets with.

I was thinking that 5 infantry in Russia would almost FORCE your opponent to attack with 10 ground units at least and, if lucky, might actually survive a round.

But, hmm, if you had retreated that Caucasian AA Gun and you had two now, that's two rockets at Japan, since he more then likely has at least one IC on the mainland by that point in the game.....  Or two at Germany if you run that way.