Air Units too strong?

Well, which nation can afford to buy solely fighters? You’re right that fighters are strong for their cost vs navy, but Germany can’t afford to keep making fighters. They’re pretty expensive to lose out on the waters when the boats you’re killing are 8 IPCs (transports) while the hard hitters are hiding behind them (carrier/fighter/bb/dest). Fighters against Japanese navy is effective, but you also need carriers to extend their range so they can get out there, which adds to the cost.

Fighters can’t take land and are also much more expensive than land units and also are vulnerable to AA fire, so you need to limit your fighter purchases if you want to advance.

Hi.

Please don’t use so many d**n “…” in your posts.  They indicate indecisiveness, and I don’t like to waste time writing responses to people that probably won’t have the gumption to think about and act on what I write.

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Ground units are the most cost-effective.

You need transports to move ground units.

You need escorts for your transports so they don’t get blown up.

Therefore, you must have navy.

If navy were REAL expensive, like 30 IPC per transport, 60 IPC per destroyer, 100 IPC per carrier, then navy really would be prohibitively expensive.  But navy is really not that expensive.

You’re just not used to playing the game yet.  Ask a few vets how they manage their navies, and you’ll get a better picture of what to do.

@invisible:

Ok sorry but you could be a little bit more friendly with people which have (probably) newbie question. However if this forum just is for vets then I won’t post again.

Hm, a “little” bit more friendly.  I think that’s reasonable.

Ok so I aks how do you manage your fleet to resist air units from land (and possibly some cannon fodder on sea). If you have ground units in the transporters what do you use then for fodder? submarines?

No.  Submarines cannot hit air units.  The best defensive buy against air is typically a carrier plus fighters.  The carrier costs 16, the fighters cost 10 each, for a total of 36 IPC for 11 defense.  If a fighter gets destroyed, it costs only 10 IPC to replace.  Also, you shouldn’t have ground units in your transports.  Your transports should be empty at the beginning of your turn, then they should pick something up, then you should drop something off, and the transport should be empty again at the end of your turn.

I just can say that in all my games the air units dominated the game in the most regions.

Air is supposed to dominate the game in the beginning, but you can build a defensive fleet pretty quickly.  Typical first moves are:  Russian sub joins UK battleship and transport off London, Germany sinks UK battleship off Gibraltar and UK destroyer off Anglo-Egypt, UK sinks Japanese transport off Kwangtung and attempts to sink Japanese sub at Solomons, Japan either sinks US fleet at Pearl or destroys Russian-held Burytia plus assorted UK Indian fleet elements, US commits to either an Atlantic fleet buy or a Pacific fleet buy.

What does that mean in game terms?

If the UK built 2 transports 1 tank 3 infantry, and the US built 1 carrier 2 transports 2 tanks, then at the end of US2, the united Allied fleet should look like:

1 USSR sub
4 UK transports
3 US transports
1 US destroyer (possibly 2 with the one from Central America)
1 US carrier
2 US fighters
1 UK battleship

That’s a REAL b**** for Germany to kill with just air.  If Germany moves its navy out to threaten the Allied navy, then the Allied air plus a few fodder Allied naval units can kill the German navy.

Thanks.

PS: Don’t be too hard because of my language. I give my best  :-)

Now, if you’re talking about the Axis viewpoint, that’s another matter.  But since the Axis have a larger starting airforce, I assume you were thinking about the Allied point of view.

@invisible:

Yes that makes sense with the aircraft carrier and obviously is a united fleet from the allies really strong so early in the game. To strike down an AC with two FIG, a BB and lets say three TRN you need a big luftwaffe and it won’t be economically (you see I thougt about it :-D). But I still think a fleet without a loaded AC is in danger in range of air units.

And BTW I posted in this forum to be convinced by somebody that I’m wrong. It coudn’t be so easy just with air units.
Anyway, thanks for your detailed answer.

That’s why most fleets will have a loaded AC with them until the threat is abated. Either the enemy air force is destroyed or there’s enough ships there that some losses are insignificant.

IMHO, UK + US Battleship is more then enough to deter a luftwaffe attack.  Especially with a Russian sub present for fodder.  Carriers are nice, but expensive if you can just move a bit more strategically.

Yeah Luftwaffe are a little bit more vulnerable than they may appear at first. I don’t like sending plain Luftwaffe at anything higher than like BB + 4 tran or higher, and that even might be pushing it. Plus you have to spend that one round without Luftwaffe on the land if you send them all out to sea, which means you’ll be burning up precious tanks that round against Russia : (

Not to mention, England and America will gladly sacrifice transports and destroyers and submarines to knock down some German fighters.  Every German fighter that is destroyed makes Russia’s job much easier.

True, you have to respect the threat of airpower and just stay out of range if it’s too much - usually early in the game.

To survive, a fleet needs both fodder and firepower.
For navies, the first “fodder” that adds stability to the defence is the free repairable hit of battleships ! Then transports or subs (depending whether attacker also can add surface ships: against air alone subs can be lost first; against air+navy subs are better than transports).
As said before, the best defensive firepower is from fighters (with the required number of carriers to land on), plus any existing battleships and destroyers (usually not worth building new, but surely using the existing ones!). Also, fighters of other powers can land on carriers (ex. UK carrier built round 1 + US fighters).

Joining different allies gives a great defender’s advantage (and defender’s only; each ally may be too weak to counterattack the German navy on its own, and it’s best to increase only one of them to prepare for the kill).

Typical survival scenarios:
NW of Africa before German round 2:
UK battleship, 2 transports, US destroyer, 2 trans, USSR sub
Holds reasonably against 4 fighters, 1 bomber. OK, may take losses but cheaper than German planes.
May deter even 5 fighters, 1 bomber if Germany doesn’t like air losses.

or

SW of Britain before German round 2 (UK build 2 transports)
UK battleship, 4 transports, US destroyer, 2 trans, USSR sub
Holds reasonably against 5 fighters, 1 bomber.

Usually, I’d rather lose a submarine then a precious transport.  Only time that changes is if the battle is close or I might need those submarines for something immediately after. (ie, National Advantage U-Boat interdiction, or if the Japanese have a fleet blocked by a transport to prevent my warships from getting at their soft transports, I might want those submarines to get at them anyway and provide fodder for my fighters. =)  )

Transports are easier to replace than german fighters.

TRNs are going to be rebuilt 3 times as fast by the US and UK as FIGs by Germany… if Germany even attempts to rebuild FIGs with Russia being their main target.

The best you can hope for is a temporary delay in Allied landings by sacrificing the Luftwaffe to sink Allied fleets… and Germany better be on Moscow’s doorstep with overwhelming force when they make that trade; if even then.

@ncscswitch:

TRNs are going to be rebuilt 3 times as fast by the US and UK as FIGs by Germany… if Germany even attempts to rebuild FIGs with Russia being their main target.

The best you can hope for is a temporary delay in Allied landings by sacrificing the Luftwaffe to sink Allied fleets… and Germany better be on Moscow’s doorstep with overwhelming force when they make that trade; if even then.

I’d consider the trade if the Japanese had a good chance of finishing off the combined allied fleets with their fighters and thus leaving the Russians to stand solo until the Allies rebuild warships and fighters. (Giving me time to rebuild some fighters too.)

But man, I better own Caucasus with 30 infantry and a dozen tanks at the very least!

I’d consider the trade if the Japanese had a good chance of finishing off the combined allied fleets with their fighters and thus leaving the Russians to stand solo until the Allies rebuild warships and fighters. (Giving me time to rebuild some fighters too.)

When do you usually find the time to send the Japanese airforce to W. Europe or Germany?

When do I, personally, find time?  When it becomes paramount to Germany’s survival to have them there.  If I had to lock it down to a set of rounds, probably between game round 8 and 11 is when it is most convenient for 6 or 7 Japanese fighters and a Japanese bomber to land in Europe.  Either Germany is fighting for its life at this point, or Russia is.  If Germany is, then you need the defense of the fighters in the core of Europe more then on carrier.  If Russia is, then you need the defensive power of those fighters with the advance German units since Germany cannot land on territory just conquered by those units.

As for when I’d hit the combined fleet, man, I’d either have to be almost done for and grasping for straws or Russia must be almost gone for and I want to give Germany a break from Allied landings for a turn or two.

I see. Well, usually I find that the Japanese need their fighters to make the threat on Moscow real. If I thought I could afford the Japanese fighters that far off to the German capital, that would probably mean I think I’ve already won the game.  :lol:

Thing is once you send the Japanese fighters there, that’s all they’re going to be good for, defense. Can’t reach Moscow for an attack, and you can’t really release them from there or Germany will collapse immediately : (