WW2 Aircraft Production vs Starting IPC Allotment

[Imperious Leader]

Yea... let the wookee German win. Otherwise playing the game will become too Politically correct.

Like what will you do if the Axis players roll well? They win and your instruction now demonstrates that the war was not a forgone conclusion and it could have easily become an Axis victory. An Axis victory will lead to more discussion anyway because students will learn that freedom needs to be fought for occasionally and the consequences of not confronting evil lead to great complications.

[axis_roll]

Like what will you do if the Axis players roll well? They win and your instruction now demonstrates that the war was not a forgone conclusion and it could have easily become an Axis victory. An Axis victory will lead to more discussion anyway because students will learn that freedom needs to be fought for occasionally and the consequences of not confronting evil lead to great complications.

I would have to say that is one of your best posts ever Imperious Leader.

Early in the war, allied victory was very much in doubt.

[Romulus]

I agree Imperious Leader,

Allied has won the war also because they do not discouraged and did not give up.
It is simple for us, that know the outcome, to say that Allied had to win the war for sure.
When you are inside an event that is still in progress you may not know the outcome.

Another important thing is that people working for the "good" should not allows to the evil things to spread, they should stay always on guard!

I agree also on the fact that A&A do not needs to be politically correct.

Allies already have all that they need to win!
However if one is not able to use his advantages to win than... he deserves to lose and it is futile to give him 250 IPC... he could lose again!

[cyan]

The biggest proportion of GDP the US ever had was a little more than 35% which was in 1945( the end of the war). so .35*166(number of ipcs world has) = 58.1
so thats 58 ipcs at teh end of the war
US: starts with 42 ipc
42 orignal+
8 Japan
6 italy
1 okinwa
3 philipenes
1 algeria
1 libya=
62 IPC ( 4 more than 58 which can be accounted for Brazil, its own country. you could even make it 7 ipcs bigger with france and new guinea buy i think they should go to British)

I think the game does a great job of production simulation. IT makes Japan too powerful but no one is really too weak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_empires

[Subotai]

I am using the game to teach history, and as I have indicated before, I could not care less about game balance, or appeasing the gods of game balance.  You want game balance, go play chess or checkers.  Second, I suspect most of this discussion of game balance is based on two player games online between expert players, where even a small advantage can be decisive.  I am running 5 player team games around an actual board, with kids who are not expert gamers, and for some, this is the first board wargame that they have ever played.  Under this situation, any kind of a good Axis player is probably going to defeat the Allies in very short order.  We have been using 2nd Edition, and I will likely be using 2nd Edition when I work with my son's high school class.  Either that or a combined Europe-Pacific game, if I can figure out how to merge the IPC values of the two games. I have been tweaking the rules now over a 4 year period, to insure that the Allies can stay in the game under the circumstances under which we play.  National Louis University, where the classes operate from, is in the middle of a heavily Jewish area.  Any game which gives the Germans a very high chance of winning is not going to fly.

Have the kids enjoyed the games?  Yes, enormously, as the class has grown from 15 to 46 in four years, and we still had a waiting list.  Another telling point is the number of games sold on the open house night at the end of the class session, when we have been selling 4 to 6 copies of the game for the past two years.  We have also been selling the kids on Mayfair's railroad games, and the various Eagle games still available.  They have also been learning an enormous amount of history in the process of playing the games. 

US production superiority was a FACT in World War 2.  Lend-Lease was a FACT in World War 2. The kids see very quickly that if the US had not gotten into the war, that the world would now be a very different place.  Without Lend-Lease, US production ability would have taken longer to have an effect, with the Germans being far harder to defeat.  Some of the posts have mentioned IPC values for the US assuming the US full production was in the game.  Calculating what the full US production value would be is actually quite simple.  The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, Pacific Division, calculated that at its peak, Japanese production was one-tenth of the United States production.  Take your value for Japanese production and multiply by 10.  You then have the US production.  Germany and the UK/Commonwealth were about equal, Russia a little behind Germany.

Give the Japanese 25, the US then gets 250 by the end of the game, the Germans get 80, the Commonwealth gets 80, and the Russians get 65.  Part of the Commonwealth production was in Canada, so that is not immediately in the game.  Same for Australian production.  Give the Germans 80 to start with, give the Japanese 25, add the captured territories as they occur, start the UK at 60 and the Russians at 45. To get the additional production, the UK needs a industrial center in Canada, and one in either India or Australian, or both.  The Russians need to build IC in order to get their increase in production.  The US simply goes up 10 IPC per turn until 250 is reached.  The Axis player either wins early, or get crushed. Game balanced.

You completely misunderstood what A&A is all about. And revised is quite pro allies, for all decent players.
In the triplea lobby many players won't take axis for a bid less than 8.
There are also custom maps in the triplea version that is more historically accurate than the revised version.
If A&A was historically correct, then it would be utterly impossible to win as axis, unless allies delibaretely let the axis player win....!
Fun for the kids that they enjoy the game, but for history lessons u should stick to books and movies

[The Desert Journalist]

National Louis University, where the classes operate from, is in the middle of a heavily Jewish area.  Any game which gives the Germans a very high chance of winning is not going to fly.

I have overlooked this part of the message of timerover51, caught in the game related discussion.

Timerover51 you cannot say such things. They are really intolerant affirmation: you cannot consider Germans and Nazis the same thing.

If people in National Louis University area are intolerant you should not adapt to them.
And you cannot allot the IPC in the game to support this approach.

First, who says that I have to be tolerant?  Second, I will qualify the statement to Nazi Germany.  However, it was not the only the Nazi who smashed Jewish windows, or wrecked Jewish businesses, or profited from the Jews being sent to the death camps. 

As for Japan, as soon as we had the Japanese military disarmed, and the country occupied, we should have shot every male member of the Imperial Family, from Hirohito on down, along with every officer in the Japanese military, and all senior noncoms.  Given the behavior of the Japanese military in occupied countries, that would have been reasonable.

I am simply shocked by this absurd statement.    An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, buddy.  Tit for tat does NOT work.  So we kill all these people off whom you suggest.  Then what?  The citizens would probably revolt against the US administrators and the situation might have been very disasterous.  The Allies didn't go kill all the German officers and NCs after the war, and it's a good thing they didn't.  You can "learn" a lot from your enemy.  A lot.  Look at all the books and manuals that were put out after the war from the German perspective, both about fighting the Allies and fighting the Russians. 

And you call yourself a teacher, yet you expound on saying we should go kill more people just because we are victorious?  How ridiculous is that?!  Please, don't let your biases get in the way of your teaching, otherwise, get out of your profession ASAP!!!

[Bunnies P Wrath]

Fun for the kids that they enjoy the game, but for history lessons u should stick to books and movies

After playing Axis and Allies, kidz will kno:

Union of South Africa
Caucasus
Balkans
Ukraine
Kazakh

and other interesting places that a lot of other students in the United States wouldn't know about.

Axis and Allies.  Teaching geography since (fill in blank)

Of course, a lot of Axis and Allies players will also think that Greenland is a hell of a lot smaller than it actually is.  Not to mention a lot of other size discrepancies.  Oh well lol.

[Romulus]

National Louis University, where the classes operate from, is in the middle of a heavily Jewish area.  Any game which gives the Germans a very high chance of winning is not going to fly.

I have overlooked this part of the message of timerover51, caught in the game related discussion.

Timerover51 you cannot say such things. They are really intolerant affirmation: you cannot consider Germans and Nazis the same thing.

If people in National Louis University area are intolerant you should not adapt to them.
And you cannot allot the IPC in the game to support this approach.

First, who says that I have to be tolerant?  Second, I will qualify the statement to Nazi Germany.  However, it was not the only the Nazi who smashed Jewish windows, or wrecked Jewish businesses, or profited from the Jews being sent to the death camps. 

As for Japan, as soon as we had the Japanese military disarmed, and the country occupied, we should have shot every male member of the Imperial Family, from Hirohito on down, along with every officer in the Japanese military, and all senior noncoms.  Given the behavior of the Japanese military in occupied countries, that would have been reasonable.

I am simply shocked by this absurd statement.    An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, buddy.  Tit for tat does NOT work.  So we kill all these people off whom you suggest.  Then what?  The citizens would probably revolt against the US administrators and the situation might have been very disasterous.  The Allies didn't go kill all the German officers and NCs after the war, and it's a good thing they didn't.  You can "learn" a lot from your enemy.  A lot.  Look at all the books and manuals that were put out after the war from the German perspective, both about fighting the Allies and fighting the Russians. 

And you call yourself a teacher, yet you expound on saying we should go kill more people just because we are victorious?  How ridiculous is that?!  Please, don't let your biases get in the way of your teaching, otherwise, get out of your profession ASAP!!!

General_D.fox, I am completely with you.

I have already tried to say to timerover51 that he may not be so intolerant.
But for what I read I am not in position to say something to him:

First, who says that I have to be tolerant?

Maybe we need a timerover52... or more...

[The Desert Journalist]

National Louis University, where the classes operate from, is in the middle of a heavily Jewish area.  Any game which gives the Germans a very high chance of winning is not going to fly.

I have overlooked this part of the message of timerover51, caught in the game related discussion.

Timerover51 you cannot say such things. They are really intolerant affirmation: you cannot consider Germans and Nazis the same thing.

If people in National Louis University area are intolerant you should not adapt to them.
And you cannot allot the IPC in the game to support this approach.

First, who says that I have to be tolerant?  Second, I will qualify the statement to Nazi Germany.  However, it was not the only the Nazi who smashed Jewish windows, or wrecked Jewish businesses, or profited from the Jews being sent to the death camps. 

As for Japan, as soon as we had the Japanese military disarmed, and the country occupied, we should have shot every male member of the Imperial Family, from Hirohito on down, along with every officer in the Japanese military, and all senior noncoms.  Given the behavior of the Japanese military in occupied countries, that would have been reasonable.

I am simply shocked by this absurd statement.    An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, buddy.  Tit for tat does NOT work.  So we kill all these people off whom you suggest.  Then what?  The citizens would probably revolt against the US administrators and the situation might have been very disasterous.  The Allies didn't go kill all the German officers and NCs after the war, and it's a good thing they didn't.  You can "learn" a lot from your enemy.  A lot.  Look at all the books and manuals that were put out after the war from the German perspective, both about fighting the Allies and fighting the Russians. 

And you call yourself a teacher, yet you expound on saying we should go kill more people just because we are victorious?  How ridiculous is that?!  Please, don't let your biases get in the way of your teaching, otherwise, get out of your profession ASAP!!!

General_D.fox, I am completely with you.

I have already tried to say to timerover51 that he may not be so intolerant.
But for what I read I am not in position to say something to him:

First, who says that I have to be tolerant?

Maybe we need a timerover52... or more...

Romulus, nice little joke.  Bumping you up + 1.  Although, maybe we don't need as many as we think... Hehehe...

[Romulus]

I cannot applaude you another time, I must wait 8 hours!   

Mmm... actually... you are right! One is enough... even too much!

[Amon-Sul]

Romulus, nice little joke.  Bumping you up + 1.  Although, maybe we don't need as many as we think... Hehehe...

ok just to elucidate

we dont dislike timerover just some of his statements

[balungaloaf]

ugh.....tolerance camp.


some people are just intolerant of others wishing to not tolerate something they perceive as wrong or bad.

PC is mind slavery.  "NO! you cant think or say that!"  "Punish them!"


even though i agree nazi's were just a sect of germans.  not all of them.