DJ, we have played about 8 games (maybe 9?). Most went 6+ hours, but I have to say the first few were partials, and went pretty slow just learning the new game (4-5 rounders). Some of those games were spent exploring the optional Russian Revolution Rules (which have officially been changed, and are much better then OOB). I'm not sure if your tournaments will be using this optional rule. IN our experience the CP are a heavy underdog due mostly to the slow movement of ground units coming from their capitals (only sniffing a win once), and the allied navy is also over whelming OOB IMO.

If you are going to do OOB for the most part, the CP are going to have a tough time IMO. They will need some help (especially w/movement). Maybe you are considering an IPC count (expand your empire) as a victory condition for either side at the end of play, that could get the CP a win. Larry is currently looking at some options for movement that could work very well in a FTF tourney (speeding things up, and getting further into the games). I know these aren't yet well tested, and may not be ready for this years tourneys, but you should probably keep an eye on these movement options for future reference if nothing else (or get with Larry to see how things are progressing).

Some of the things Larry is looking at (as optional play)

1) The French navy in particular seems oversize (Larry has acknowledged so), and I think he is considering a change to the French sz15 Atlantic fleet, leaving it with only a cruiser at set-up (swapping BB for cruiser and removing the transport). This alone will help the CP in a 6 hour game IMO, giving the French fewer options and the allies not able to dominate the Atlantic as easy even when the UK navy is sunk. This should make the UK build a bit more navy for Europe if it wants to get troops to France, leaving it w/fewer IPCs to spend in India.


2) He is also exploring some variations for movement, that will speed things up over at his site. He is looking at allowing ground units to move two spaces. as long as the 2nd move doesn't end in combat or in a contested territory (I think that's the latest thought). If using the extra move you basically need to stay in friendly territories. It's kind like having a non combat move rolled into the established single move phase  (Edit) You can't enter a neutral or hostel territory with the 2nd move, but you can reinforce friendly territories, and reinforce/fight for contested territories (there are some other strings attached, but it's  pretty cool IMO).

3) He's also giving +1 to navy departing from a friendly naval base (like in global) to offset what is perceived to be a CP advantage w/2 moves on ground (allies generally dominate the sea, and it will help get the US into Europe faster). There is also an attacker retreat option w/this variation (similar to other games).

4) He is also going with a variation to Sub Warfare allowing sub econ attacks on US/UK to hit on 3 or less, and tally them up.

Anyway, good luck in getting this game right, and I hope to attend someday.


PS: I like what was done with the global 1942 version, and we're trying it out.

We are seeing very similar games. The UK spends all India for the first 3+ turns, and steamrolls the Turks (then on to a depleted Austria). We are trying to develop a strat to take Paris, with very limited results. We have found that as the CP it is better to have the Germans go full tilt after the French (with maybe small 15 units Austrian force that hits Venice on the way), and see if the Austrians can hold off the Russians/Italians (with very little German help). Having the CP go in with just one (but much larger) force seems to be better then trying to march side by side at this point.

The French can muster up a pretty good defense all on their own w/heavy inf buys, so the Germans need to keep a steady flow of units coming for a continued siege of Paris until it falls (you have to contest Paris ASAP to drop the French income). Might even try to bring some more Austrian units if they can be spared through Switzerland to deal with the other allies making landings on French coast. The French fleet is defiantly over sized (2 BB's?), and this allows the UK to spend all India, and still get some units to France w/min effort. If the Germans keep their fleet together and sink the UK home fleet (forgo the Canadian attack) they can get control of the Atlantic, and force a show down (maybe get the UK to buy fleet), but it is hard to build German navy, and keep units flowing towards Paris.  

Anyway, I'm right in the same boat and think that maybe we should start a topic on the UK going all India on Larry's site to see if we can spark a slight set-up change, or limit on builds in India.

Some stuff we were thinking are:
1) India has a build limit of 8 units (2x its IPC level). May not help much, but we are seeing 10+ unit builds there as their income rises.
2) Change to the French Atlantic fleet in sz 15. Swap French BB to cruiser, and remove the transport (leaving only a cruiser). This will do a couple things. First make it at least the same size as the German stating fleet (it was much smaller). This will be more inline to what they had, and would force the UK to build fleet in the Atlantic. The French fleet was merely supplemental in the Atlantic, not dominate (they always bring over the Med BB at some point, because it isn't needed in the Med).

Yeah if Russia try's to stack Poland or Romania round 1 I think they are just feeding the CP machine, They can't lose a big chunk of their army early on IMO, or they will fall. We generally see Russia mass 40+ units in Ukraine on turn 1, and activate Romania if the Austrians didn't attack it. Then its a cat & mouse game to see if the CP can get you to attack them, and counter you with the other. Bulk up and try to delay them so the UK can send in some units to help keep you from a Revolution (if your playing with those rules).

[or bait the French into attacking]

what happens if the Germans don't attack Paris with a 50 vs 50 stack and hold just outside and wait for reinforcements or bait the French into attacking?� The Germans are gong to lose half their units on an attack like that and I agree, the Germans have no chance of winning it.� What is France's income at about that time?� I think that basic plan is impossible to win as you would be losing more troops than you are reinforcing with.� I think a mistake people are making with the CPs are they are being too aggressive.� What do the Russians typically do in your games after the Germans take Poland, but they aren't going full force towards Russia (and Austria isn't going to attack a 40-man stack either)?� Couldn't the Germans walk up the coast while the Russians hunker down.� At some point they will have to spread out a bit to prevent the loss of all their territory.� I agree with the learning curve though.� The way it is set up makes it look like you have to play it the same way you play WWII and be ultra aggressive with the CPs when you have to use a restrained aggressiveness.�

You also say the CP must be patient, but with a large income gap they cannot afford to be patient lol
They have to take tt and hold it fast else they are doomed to at best losing a war of attrition

Anyhow Larry's strategic movement idea would greatly improve balance and give the CPs a real fighting chance!

Notice the question mark following what you highlighted?� I was asking Wild Bill a question of what he has seen in that situation if Germany doesn't attack the French stack in Paris.� No where in any of my posts do I say that baiting the French is part of my master plan.� The CPs are losing the economic battle if they allow the UK and US to freely land troops in mainland Europe, hence my argument for a CP navy.� The CPs have the material and economic advantage on the mainland and can maintain that even if they divert some to naval purchases. I will post the numbers for all of this later as I don't have them in front of me at the moment.

In the situation referred to above, when the Germans got to Burgundy w/50 or so units a good chunk of it was art and they also had air power (it was an attack force). The French only had the artillery they start with (think 8?), and did all inf buys to get to 50 units or so (a defense force). At that point the French aren't going to attack because they simply don't have the art/air needed to make a dent, and would just be wiped out. If you delay as Germany and give them a couple turns that will change as they start buying art/ftrs and maybe tanks. If the Germans delay the assault, and don't contest Paris the French also keep getting paid for it, so you need to move in to start dropping the French income.

This all happened around turn 5, so the UK/US start to land on the beaches of France to funnel units in to defend it, so the longer Germany waits, the more units will be defending Paris. It is a double edge sword though, because when Germany attacks, and even if they are able to drop Paris, the other allies could be there to liberate it shortly afterwords.

I think that Texas dose have a valid point though, and the CP does need to challenge the allied naval dominance (once they get their armies moving in the right direction). They need to preserve their starting navies, like have the Germans attack the British home fleet w/everything (leaving the Canadian fleet alone). Have them buy a ship here and there to slowly build up. Maybe the Austrians buy a sub turn 1, because the allies have to attack one at a time, and it might deter them from hitting you for a bit. If the Germans keep their fleet together in North Sea, it will generally get the French attention, and they may abandon the Med to help defend/rebuild the English fleet. In the game I described above the Germans could have got control of the Atlantic with a 3rd turn navy build (maybe just temporarily), because the UK built almost exclusively India. A fairly heavy 3rd or 4th turn German navy build could have very well made a difference. It cuts off the German flow of reinforcements though, but it could also have delayed the allied landings. Can't wait to give it another shot LOL.

That was the conclusion we came up with. The 2 subs versus 1 cruiser has the potential to be good (and the games where it works it was great) but the opportunity for disaster is so great that our CP players would rather risk the minefields and leave no UK boat to chance.

I always take some Canadians with me to drop off in Egypt to further lock that down.

Once your three transports get into position outside of India you can transport 6 units a turn directly into Mesopotamia. That is... traumatic to the Ottoman empire.

Yeah, also if the Italians have built some transports, then the Turks aren't drifting too far from their capital with a possible double attack by sea.

Thanks for the response, what happens if the Germans don't attack Paris with a 50 vs 50 stack and hold just outside and .... bait the French into attacking?��  

Don't count on the other player to throw the game away for your strat to be good.

Don't count on which player to throw the game and what strat are you referring to?

Exactly what I quoted. If you "bait" the French into attacking in the situation you describe, you did not do a good move, they did an awful one.

Yeah in the scenario I described the French built mostly inf, so there is no way they would be attacking any time soon (maybe turn 7ish). If you stall though, they would just continue to add to their home guard, but probably switch to art/ftr/tank builds as the other allies start landing on the beaches turn 4-6 to take over the defensive duties of Paris (allowing the French to go offensive). If you don't contest Paris as soon as you can (turn 4 or 5) and eventually take it, the French will have 25+ IPC to spend each turn, and with the other allies defending Paris now your offensive is now in retreat IMO, because your reinforcements can't match them. You're not going to bait the French into attacking you any time soon if you stall, but you will eventually give them the upper hand IMO and they will push you back. Your window for Paris is early, but then you need to figure out how to defend Paris if you indeed take it, so you can keep it long enough to get the 2nd allied capital for the win. This means that Austria has to be doing well vs Russia, or Italy to attempt that second capital, and maybe be in a position to add to the defense of Paris (that's why you clear Switzerland to allow the Austrians a faster path to Paris).

In our new games I've been using the strategy of sending the Canadian transport down to India if Germany's subs either miss or they send their subs against the main UK fleet. If you thought having 2 invincible transports was tough to deal with, try three.

That it very interesting zanetheinsane (I like it for the allies anyway, CP not so much LOL). You could also send some Canadians to Africa to clean out the Germans faster, then head to the Middle East/Med.


In our games the Germans have adopted to all available fleet hit the UK home fleet to sink it faster, leaving the Canadian mini fleet alone (the Atlantic subs have to go through both UK mined SZ's though). This seems to preserve the German fleet much better, and gives you something to build with (if you go that way). Otherwise both your sea battles are a bit dicey, and the subs you send to Canada (if they survive your attack) will be sunk by the French ASAP.

Thanks for the response, what happens if the Germans don't attack Paris with a 50 vs 50 stack and hold just outside and .... bait the French into attacking?�  

That would be awesome if the French attacked, but very unlikely (they have bought mostly inf if you're gunning for Paris). If you delay for a turn, you also play into their hands, because the UK/Italians are already starting to arrive on the French beaches, and would be defending Paris on your first attack. The next game as Germany I plan on keeping a better supply of reinforcements coming (last game some new units went to help against Russia). I also plan on having a small 10+ unit Austrian force w/me to head off some of the allied landings.  I will again beef up the German navy G3, G4 to challenge what they can bring over from England (especially if they build mostly India for a while).

One game (going hard Paris) I had a brain fart around turn 3 or 4 and tried to land some Germans in Karelia to put some pressure on Russia (through the Baltic). I killed the Russia BB, and the only ship that hit his mines was my transport LOL. Needless to say I was PO'ed, but what was worse was I put my self out of position and allowed the UK to drop transports off England (he had built mostly India the first 3 turns).  I had a decent size navy at the time, and they would have built navy, but it would have been mostly warships, and fewer transports. I had a good chance to keep the waters clear, or make him fight to cross the Channel, but messed it up. By time I engaged him it was too late, the damage was done. Next time I will not leave the North Sea, live and learn. The Italians & US would still have saved Paris though by landings in Marseilles/Bordeaux. The UK could build navy in sz8 to block the German fleet out, and allow the US to land troops in Bordeaux turn 5, or the US/Italians come up together through the Med from Marseilles (takes longer). It would be next to impossible for the German fleet to cut off the Med route.

Texas, back on the first page of this thread I kinda started the whole France can keep their income steady, and increase it if they want to as the CP take their European lands by French control of Portugal, African lands, and various neutrals (the others have been backing that up w/their own experiences). The UK can easily add to their own income by spending heavily in India the first 3 turns, and gaining the neutral/Turk lands (and containing Africa).


Now the Russians may not be tipped off yet that the CP are going hard Paris, because Germany hasn't taken its first turn yet, but they generally don't fight for Poland in our games (just gets their units killed), and only activate Romania (if Austria didn't attack it A1). The Russians have adopted a move everything they can to the Ukraine (about 40 units), and retreat if the CP are gunning for them. On R2 the Russians will see that the CP are going west, and adapt accordingly. BTW our Russians always hit the Turk navy R1 or R2, and live with what ever results. They can generally at least remove one cruiser for someone else to finish them off.
 
This leaves the Austrians to deal with a massive Russian army that moves everything to Ukraine R1 (40+ units). Don't get me wrong, the Austrian can hold back the Russian (have even seen them gain an advantage if the Russians attack), but they aren't going to be threatening Rome with just their starting forces adjacent to Venice. The Italians know this, and start building transports to make landing in the Balkans or later landings on the French Med coast to help out Paris. The French have also activated Albania for the Italians on F1 in nearly every game so far, so the Italians already have a starting force in the Balkans to use in their first turn.


When the Germans go hard to Paris, the French will see it on their first turn and do mostly inf buys and pull back (the French will have about the same number of total units as the Germans in the first German attack on Paris, somewhere around 50 I think). They are tipped off because the Germans will need to pull back from the Russian front (move those units back to Berlin, and add G1 purchases) to have the strength to capture Paris (second assault). The French don't need any help from UK early on because Paris is so far away from Berlin. The French can keep their income steady at 25- 30 IPCs (or more) all the way until Paris is contested depending on what they take. The Germans can assault Paris on the 5th turn, but need their G1 buys (and the units they pulled from the Russian front) to hit Paris again on G6. The French get to add units in between (when Paris is contested), and they will have somewhere near 25ish IPCs at that time (because of their other holdings). By this time the French/UK/Italy will have removed any CP navy in the Med, and will be full steam ahead to the Atlantic (Italy probably stays in the Med in case Austria gets cocky, but the US has war ships for defense in the Atlantic). The Western allies don't need to attack the German fleet, because they aren't landing in German territories at this time, they're going for French coastal territories (probably Brest to bridge starting UK units from Wales). It doesn't mater what the Germans have bought for navy (like you said the Germans aren't going to take London), because they would have to attack a combined 3 power navy w/multiple BBs in UK mined sz's, and the UK will be buying only navy for sz 7 from turn 4 on. If they have to they will lay out a build for sacrifice, and would be happy to have the Germans attack them with their friends near by for a counter double/tipple attack on a weakened German navy.

What we have seen in our games is UK spending heavily in India the first few turns (ignoring London) to either get units to Russia if its a kill Russia first (or force Rus Rev gave), or to take out the Turks if the CP are going hard to the west. The UK doesn't attempt to rebuild the home fleet early on. The Germans sometimes add to their fleet, but it doesn't really make much difference to the western front because the German fleet has to move though the UK mined sz's to make landings anywhere near the western front (we have seen them lose transports to mines in several games). Early in games the allies have moved nearly all navy to the Med to double/triple hit any CP navy (stopping when their BBs are on their side to preserve them), then start reorganizing their fleets towards the Atlantic to get units from England to the French coast in turn 4 -6.

Texas, I'm not as critical as the others are about the games you've played, but I do question heavy German naval builds starting G1 (we have gone that route as well, didn't end good though). I think the Germans can afford to build some navy once they get the ground units built and are heading in the right direction. Maybe start filtering in some early naval builds for the Germans to force a reaction from the allies (then a heavy turn 3 naval build?), but the naval dominance the allies enjoy is really hard to over come (you would need great dice IMO).  I think your allied players need to play a bit more defensive, because if the allies are aggressive in the beginning and try to contest territories they generally just lose many units to a much stronger CP force, that will cause their collapse. If the French & Russians pull back and be more patient (see the full CP plan, and wait for help), and force the CP to make attacks on well defended land (even if its all the way back to their capital), then they are much harder to take down. The allies need to be more selective in their battles. This along with the UK goes heavy India the first 3 turns to help the battles to the east is a very powerful tool (you guys should try it out to see for your selves).  


I'm not throwing the towel in on the CP as others have done either. This is a strange game though in the respect it is generally the axis (CP) that have a straight forward approach, and the Allies that have a longer learning curve. This game is defiantly the opposite LOL.  In our next game as the CP we know we have to be more focused, and will be looking at limiting what I though were a couple minor mistakes. It is also much easier for the allies to recover from mistakes then the CP IMO. Good gaming Texas!!  It seems right for someone from Texas to be a hold out, its kinda like the Alamo all over again LOL

I said allies mostly, because we haven't finished all the games. We've played 6-7 games and the allies have pretty much dominate them all. I think the allies have too much of a sea advantage, and can move units too freely. The French fleet is over sized, and needs to be cut back some. UK spends in India is out of control, and needs to be limited. I agree the way that the French can ratchet up their income even though they have lost 1/2 their European lands is very unsettling (and the UK can get a healthy income boost when it spends in India).



We have done some good things with the CP though, and will be looking to see the next game through to the end. I think we may be pulling the plug a bit early, and maybe the CP can get its second wind after the allies go on the offensive for a while and have trouble with thier own supply lines (although the allied navies will most likely fix that).

 

The CP put Russia into a 5th turn revolution in our first game, but the cost was to severe as both the Austrian/German armies were wiped out doing it, and the western allies were approaching Berlin in force. It would have taken them at least 4 rounds to take it, but the CP income was plummeting.  

In another game we had the Germans go 90% Paris (10% aid to the Russian front), and the Austrians did the opposite, 85% dig in to defend against the Russians, and 15% follow Germany to the west. The Austrian army hit Venice A1 with all 16 units (13 survived), but bailed on me and headed back to Austria when Italy bought a couple transports and made multiple landings in the Balkans (with some help from the French). The Austrians were stretched in the beginning, but they eventually over came the Russians. As it turned out the French can mount a hell of a defense by themselves too (all inf buys, and pull back to Paris). The UK went hard India the first 3 turns, then started making some landings on the French coast. My Germans attacked Paris, but it would have taken 3 rounds to drop it, and the UK/Italy were there to either move in to defend Paris after my first assault, or liberate it if I did get it (so it was pointless).

I think the Germans going hard France, and the Austrians going hard Russia might work, but you should have a small 12 unit ally force with you to head off trouble, or back you up, and the Germans need to keep a steady supply chain going, or attempt to stop UK landings. I think we focused a bit too much on def against the Russians, because the Austrians were eventually able to over power them, and push them back, but the Germans were pretty much out of steam in the west by then.



In our next game we are probably going to change the French sz 15 naval set up to just a cruiser (swap BB for cruiser, and remove the transport).

We are also house ruling a production limit of 8 units in India (2X its IPC value). It's not much of a change but in one game the UK spent all income there for 3 turns (30+ units). 8 per turn would at least cut it down to 24 units over the 3 turns (we'll see how it goes).

I like the fact that the UK can't add to its fleet Off India, and would have to think twice about sacrificing it in attacks on enemy fleet & mines. Plus a couple more transports and the Turks would be in even worse trouble IMO. The UK fleet in India/Med is already is the biggest fish in the sea, I wouldn't want them to have the ability to directly add to it. 

My opponent last Saturday did something like this. He used all British IPC in India. Still i could hold off the British, but it took all of the Turkish strength and attention. They couldnt do anything else. I lost that game, but i never seen CP win...

We are also seeing games where the UK spends all income in India for a couple rounds (20+ units or so over two turns). Do you think it would help if India's production was held to 2X its IPC level (8 units)? I know it doesn't help much (max of 16 units over 2 turns), but could slow them down some, and as the Turks you could see that they couldn't drop 10-12 units in one turn as we've seen them do. If the UK ignores India for some time, you as the CP could also see what they could have there if you went for it. Right now the CP have very little chance of ever taking India when they can drop 12+ inf+ there at the last minute (with their 40+ IPC).

So if you look at in sheer numbers, the OOB isn't that far off on most powers when you consider the Indian fleet as part of the Pacific fleet (and remove the rest)). UK is king of the hill (and probably under represented as far as battleships/cruisers), they will  loose the home fleet (as in every other A&A game), but can rebuild easily. The Germans should be second (but also reduced to match the UK home fleet so they can't obtain naval supremacy). The French are the main problem and over inflated as ppl have said (Atlantic BB needs to be down sized to a cruiser). This would make the French at about the same as the Germans (still out of proportion), but when you consider one of the Turk cruisers as a gift from the Germans it helps to bring things around. Russia should probably cut one of the Black Sea cruisers, but because the Turks get 2 cruisers it should stay IMO.

Keep in mind that Germany is the only power to start with subs, and they get 4. This somewhat makes up for the surface fleet being undersized IMO, and the UK fleet is defiantly undersized as well. Fix the French fleet, and call it a day LOL


Taken from above quote:  

Battleships                 cruisers                  What they have OOB
                              
Britain: � 6               Britain: � 7             2BB, 5cr  (BB under represented, but understandable)
Germany: � 3           Germany: � 3          1BB, 2cr + Turk cr (gift)  (not to far off because UK is reduced)
France: � 2               France: � 2             2BB, 1 cr (over inflated, should be 1 BB, 2 cr)
Austria: � 1               Austria: � 1           1BB, 1cr  (good)
Italy: � 1                   Italy: � 1               1BB, 1cr  (good)
Russia: � 1                Russia: � 1            1BB, 2cr  (maybe 1 cr over, but matches the Turks)
USA: � 2                   USA: � 2                1BB, 1cr  (Atlantic fleet, so good)
Turkey: � 0               Turkey: 1                 2cr (over sized but ok, one of them gifted from Germany)

Replace the French Atlantic battleship with a cruiser, take away one of their transports.
Give the Germans a transport so Russia can't be as aggressive.

This is what I would do w/French BB anyway, from what I've recently read the focus of the French navy in 1914 was in the Med, because they feared an Austria/Italian alliance (yeah, I know the game starts w/Italy on the allies side, but the bulk of the French fleet was still in the Med). The French had several cruisers/destroyers off the Atlantic coast/English Channel supplementing the British navy, but the bulk of their fleet (including all their biggest guns) was in the Med. Plus they didn't have more big ships then the Germans, so this is a good move IMO. I think the French Med BB will venture out to the Atlantic more times then not to bolster the UK fleet rebuild. The Med would still be really rough on the CP, but I think it is intended to be that way.

Link showing where the French fleet was, and its goals in 1914
http://www.naval-history.net/WW1NavyFrench.htm


If you make the French Atlantic BB a cruiser (this should happen), the Germans get a 3rd option/target and could attempt to sink the French Atlantic fleet instead of the Canadian fleet. I think you would probably remove the French Atlantic transport as well leaving the 2 French Med transports (the Med is where the French had the most transport ability, because the bulk of its fleet was there to escort). I don't think you want the French to end up with just 1 transport (still need to pick up the Portuguese). So that leaves the French Atlantic fleet with just a cruiser, still making the Canadian fleet the Germans second target (after the UK home fleet), which is good for the game IMO.

As far as the German transport, I think that should wait for now. I'm not sure the Germans should have the option to make landings in northern Russia, or Scotland (on the first turn). There's nothing to counter it w/only a single inf able to counter attack in those territories.

An earlier post suggested an Austrian sub be added to the set up (I too was leaning that way). I changed my mind based on what I read, the Austrians didn't have many subs. In 1915 the Germans had subs delivered to the Adriatic and sailed under the Austrian flag, but had German commanders (Germany wasn't yet at war w/Italy). Being this takes place after the game starts (and I know Italy starts the game already at war), I think the Austrians shouldn't get a sub at set-up (if they want one, build one), because it would give them attack capabilities from the get go they didn't have as far as game terms. The Austrian navy was a fleet in being, and their big ships didn't leave port (was a defensive deterrent, as the game shows w/mines etc...). This plus an Austrian sub could sneak under the Italian fleet and hit the UK cruiser/transport in sz 19 so it would have to be moved, or boosted (and boosted wouldn't be good for the CP).

Edit:
Maybe place a German sub with the Austrian navy, as this would only bolster their defense, but not attack capabilities. Being subs can move through enemy fleets w/o stopping, maybe this would be of some help down there (like slithering over to the Turk fleet)? You would still have the problem w/UK Egyptian fleet (as above)


So at this time I would be against an Austrian sub, and/or a German transport added at set-up, but would definitely be on board with reducing the French Atlantic BB to a cruiser, and removing the Atlantic transport as well (leaving just a French cruiser in sz15 at set-up). This would give the CP somewhat of a chance if they started building navy, or a better chance to control either the Atlantic, or possibly the Med for at least a short period of time (and would also be cool to test).

Edit: Maybe also look at a German sub placed w/Austrian fleet at set-up? But now you would have to chip subs at set-up LOL, unless you also removed one of the starting Germans Atlantic subs too, and then there's the UK Egyptian fleet (German sub could take a shot at it) .

No, I think 4 units would be horrible for game play, and the Turks would have a good chance to take them out. 8 units seem like a lot, until you have seen 12 units dropped there 2-3 turns in a row LOL. I wouldn't want them to be too weak to get anything done, or defend themselves, just to tone it down a bit. The UK can ignore India, then bam instant army in two turns. With a limit of 8 units they can still do that to a degree, but it will be weaker then w/o any limits.

At least we agree that it shouldn't be unlimited