3 Infantry, Armor, Fighter girl.

I'm 4 inf 3 art dude 

Fleet protection is enough IMO if they will lose 2 or more fighters on average in the first roll.

And yea, it is a good idea to buy 2 carriers with the US if the Germans are going nutty on navy.

Can you explain to me how DD is a better buy for protection than AC?

I don't think Jen was saying that DD is a better buy. She would in fact purchase 2 carriers with the UK if it were possible immediately and have US fighters land on them. She was saying buy both an AC and then a destroyer with the leftover cash in order to dissuade a German counterattack.

It's an either or question, Dan.  You can either reinforce Sinkiang massively on Russia 1, or you can hold Ukraine on Russia 2.

I would be scared to try to hold Ukraine on R2. Germany could strafe you down a lot! I guess it depends on your first moves. Is the standard still W Russia + Belorussia, or is it Ukraine/W. Russia?

If I get 8 IPC as Germany, the TRN will be in SZ14, or perhaps a SUB in SZ8...

I remember trying that lol. It was really funny to see Germany sailing into the heart of Africa along the west coast, and also Germany sinking the UK bb/tran + Russian sub in the other case lmao. It wasn't terribly advantageous in the long run though in my experience, but I didn't try it often enough to feel conclusive about it.

I wouldn't sat that a UK buy of an A/C is a total 'waste'.

Ah but you see I never said the AC is a waste. I said the destroyer is a waste.

The AC should be enough to grant you immunity to Luftwaffe, especially when the US arrives with its own dest/tran. Since you already trashed the German navy and blocked the other part from participating why would you additionally need a destroyer? The Luftwaffe should already be peeing their pants to go into battle against any navy without naval fodder themselves. I'd be peeing my pants go send 5 fighters 1 bomber against 1 car 1 bb 1 sub 2 tran. Even if I got the 2 tran, I'd lose many more IPCs in gear. The UK should be immune to Luftwaffe without building a dest; building a dest is extraneous!

Even if all this opener does is force the UK to build a dest, that is a clear improvement over other 0 IPC naval builds. I cannot think of any other 0 IPC naval build that could cause the UK to panic themselves into sinking (literally  ) IPCs into a destroyer.

Germany either attacks the Royal Navy on G2, or they surrender the seas

Surrender the seas of course! That's the only sane way to long term victory. But again, I'd be extremely happy to see the UK bombard themselves for 12 IPCs. It's not like I can seriously entertain any notion of strafing tran, but if I can force the UK to think that I can, then they have wasted 12 IPCs. Maybe that is the "best" counter, maybe it's too scary to let the Baltic slip into the Med without scrapping it.

A UK on turn 2 with no transports (and building a destroyer) is happy day for the Germans. Usually they'd be in Norway on UK2, but alas they can't board anywhere! I could live with "counters" like that all day!  And I'd probably just scrap the American navy of 2 tran 1 dest just to top things off with the med navy + airforce, meaning another turn before the Americans can get their shuck going. The Allies will get Africa if they want to, so it's not like the Axis is losing much there...

Who says I have to send all the German airforce in a suicide mission and lose them all? I have already gained plenty with not losing any airforce.

Let's look at it this way:

According to Jen, UK loses a fig and a transport taking out the combined Baltic navy, on average. (attacking 3 sub 1 dest 1 tran with 1 bb 2 tran 2 fig 1 bomb)

Then, the UK build is an AC and a destroyer.

I say Axis gets an A+.

Loss of fig + tran = 18 IPCs
To build a destroyer = strategically bombing yourself for 12 IPCs

If I lost the sub-reinforced Baltic navy, I wouldn't send the med navy with airforce. I'm not suicidal. I wouldn't try to take out this:

Allied Forces:
1 BB, 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 DST, 1 SUB

With 1 sub + airforce. There would be no point. The only time I would attack is if I had plenty of fodder and had a chance at nabbing transports. You seem to have badly misinterpreted my tactic as some sort of gambit to devastate the entire Allied shipping at cost of all the German airforce. I would never do that.

Here is what I thought everyone would see plainly:

At 0 IPCs of naval purchase, Germany has forced the UK to lose 1 fig, 1 tran, and build a destroyer in addition to an AC. Awesome! What other opener can you think of that costs 0 naval IPCs can do this?

The UK has wasted 12 IPCs on a destroyer which I'm not even going to attempt to attack. Go, UK!

Do you see the goal, the intent, is not to make some massive gambit at the cost of all airforce, nor is it to combine both fleets at all costs? Not at all. I think this is a greatly efficient gambit that forces the Allies to make some awkward moves. That is the point, screwing up their build with a destroyer and sacrificing a transport/fighter. That's the gain right there, without having to throw away airforce. And it is done without a single IPC or awkward part on the Germans. The SZ8 sub nor the Baltic navy would normally do anything of significance, but to have them do this? Great! I say.

To be honest, I never saw the financial gain of attacking SZ 5 on UK 1 myself.  I'm risking 3 aircraft to enemy fire (and they have a GOOD chance at getting all 3 of them) for a fleet that's at most annoying, at best impotent.

That, and I'm much better suited to killing it on UK 2 if no carrier is present, UK 4 if one is.

I think the intelligent way to hit the Baltic is to strafe it. Don't stay there after you take out a couple of units; all you need is to take out a couple of fodder units so that a suicide becomes a bad investment since German aircraft is at risk.

However, as England, an intelligent purchase would be Aircraft Carrier, Destroyer on UK 1 then.  Of course, your BB and Trn are in range with 5 or 6 fighters and a bomber, but the British fleet (with Russian fodder) should be able to do enough damage, no?

If the UK purchases a destroyer, I will be smiling on the inside, while feigning nervousness. After all, what good is a destroyer for in the long run? I'd then strafe their fleet with 3 subs as fodder with 5 fighters + 1 bomber. On average, they will deal 3 hits to me (the 3 subs, yay, I maybe have to lose the bomber if they get a little lucky) and I'd deal 4 back. BB soaks up a hit, Russian sub gone, UK transport gone, and a destroyer or fighter? So the UK has 0-1 transports at the beginning of their second turn, and hasn't built a single thing to help in the land situation, not pretty. (by the way this is assuming the US blocked the med navy from joining in)

Of course, I am talking about averages here, the battle could swing either way depending on dice. But I don't think your proposed counter is efficient at all, simply and only because it involves buying a destroyer. How many other German openers, which cost zero naval IPCs, can force the UK to buy a destroyer? None I'd imagine 

And remember, the UK is Germany's worst nightmare. The US simply takes far too much time to get into action, it's like round 5 before the 4x4 shuck shuck becomes stabilized. If I can force the UK to spend/waste a turn with something like destroyer/carrier, that's simply amazing. That's an extra turn that I am allowed to build 10+ inf and shore up all locations with no fear of UK reprisal.

Personally I think the answer is to let the German navy slip away...

But I already mentioned Sea Lion as a problem. Besides, Germany goes before UK, so UK gets the option to build 2 ICs when it's feasible, not always.

Africa is a valid concern. The Germans could have a fairly big fleet because of the way I leave the Baltic alone, which would easily screw up a small shuck to Africa.

I didn't mention it originally, but I did mean to say to merge in SZ7. So what if you're in range of UK fleet? If they win, their fleet is sticking right next to W. Europe in range of all your airpower and med fleet.

How about this - right after the first round, submerge the 3 subs. Then use them as fodder to massacre the UK fleet!

And if you sail out of SZ5 to SZ6 or 7 with the Baltic Fleet, you are now in range of the UK naval forces as well as air force...

That's just what you want, isn't it? If the UK navy sticks around, they'll be within striking range of all your airforce as well as the med bb/tran. Bringing in the navy also sets off the 3 sub's attacks which wouldn't be triggered normally if you just attacked with air...

A KJF would take a long ass time actually. Just because Russia falls doesn't mean Germany can end the game.  By that time the Japanese are just building inf on their island waiting to die from US bb shots. And then what do you have? US now owns Japan and where would we go from there? I suppose Germany would start by pushing out to sea so the US can't dump factories, then start trying to research destroyer bombardment and shell the UK out? O_o It'd be so weird to see the late stages after the capitals have fallen in a KJF; what's the next step for US and Germany O_o?!

Yeah, sometimes 2 carriers is what you need as the US if the Germans go with crazy amounts of navy. Usually I stick to one US carrier and one UK carrier, but what the hell do I know I haven't played against anyone but myself for a while. 

Taking the India IC has its own problems.

Turn 1

UK Builds IC, walks 1 inf over, fighters/bomber to Moscow
Japan Builds 3 transports

Turn 2

Uk Builds 3 tanks, walks 1 inf over, fighters/bomber to India
Japan lands 6 inf 1 art 1 arm into F Indo

Turn 3

UK Builds 3 tanks, now has 5 inf 6 tank 3 fig 1 bomb 1 aa
Japan attacks with 6 inf 1 art 1 arm 6 fig 1 bomb 2 bb shots. A tricky battle.

Now to be fair, both sides can have more troops. Japan can use infantry from the mainland, and the UK can have allied figs landing in India.

In either case, Japan has to commit a lot of forces to get that IC. And while they're doing so, that little monster force from Russia walks behind them and chews up manchuria/kwang/findo, and china is back in US hands. Japan maybe can get India, but loses 9 IPCs of mainland in the process with no quick fix. It quickly becomes the US outproducing Japan at 2:1 which means they lose the naval battle soon.

As usual, don't buy any German navy. 

Attack Gibraltar with your BB/tran and some fighters, and all your standard openers but leave your SZ8 sub alone. 

In noncombat, link the SZ8 sub with the Baltic navy.

What'd you just accomplish? You now gave the UK a little wrinkle. Normally they'd send their airforce out to kill your Baltic navy, but now it has an extra sub, which shifts the battle to the Germans if just airforce is sent (subs for fighters/bomber, yes plz!).

This lets your Baltic navy escape undamaged into the Med without costing you any IPCs 

It's not necessarily the best move out there; for instance sometimes you'd want the UK to take the risk and lose fighters by attacking a normal Baltic navy, but now you have an interesting navy in the med! Maybe it will sneak out one day and threaten American shipping, or create nightmares in Africa.